pilowsky Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 Did I misinterpret this response to 4NT - what was GIB telling me? GIB North opens with this hand[hv=pc=n&n=skj92hj3dak654ck8]133|100[/hv]E and W pass throughout.I have:[hv=pc=n&s=saq86hk52dqtcajt2]133|100[/hv]North opens 1♦. I'm pretty excited. I have 16HCP. I'm thinking slam.I ask for Aces.North "thinks" for a moment and then replies: 5♠ Two or five key cards; queen -- 3+ ♦; 11-21 HCP; ♦Q; 12-22 total points Seriously? I blame myself for bidding 7NT which West - holding the ♥A doubled. LIN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 North seems to have two key cards in diamonds plus two extra diamonds that make showing the queen of diamonds a reasonable idea, given that anyone immediately asking for aces is expected to have at least five diamonds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 Seriously?I agree completely. How anyone can seriously respond 4NT with that South hand is anyone's guess. How hard can it possibly be to start showing 4 card suits with a forcing call? 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidKok Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 Are you sure 4NT wasn't simply quantitative and 5♠ is natural? I don't see the appeal in ace-asking bids at this point of the auction. As an aside, there are only 9 top tricks, 11 if the diamonds run. Even making 6NT requires some correct guess in hearts or clubs. 6♠ looks much better to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 Are you sure 4NT wasn't simply quantitative and 5♠ is natural? Well, GIB did give its explanation, which the OP has provided. I don't see the appeal in ace-asking bids at this point of the auction. Nor the appeal in bidding a grand with a known missing key card. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamford Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 I agree completely. How anyone can seriously respond 4NT with that South hand is anyone's guess. How hard can it possibly be to start showing 4 card suits with a forcing call?There is an argument that 4NT should be "simple" Blackwood. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamford Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 6♠ looks much better to me.I agree, and someone who calls a spade a spade might get there. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCovert Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 I'd imagine that a standard treatment for 4NT in this situation would be quantitative. GIB seems to have it defined as 1430, so, okay. 2 keycards can mean the K♦ is one of them, and you have to cater to that. It's a truly poor auction though. First of all, 12 HCP + 16 HCP = how much HCP? Why do you think you have slam at all? There's really no reason to suggest you're taking any more than 10 tricks at this point. And, you'll never have a clue what contract is correct after bidding 4NT. 6NT is considered mandatory at 32 or 33 HCP, depending on who you ask. It can make on less, but, generally you need a good source of tricks. That's quite a ways from the 12 HCP that is required for the 1♦ opener. It seems that your enthusiasm caused you to jump the gun on this one. Unfortunately for you, you got the result that your auction deserved, but, perhaps this will really hammer home this particular mistake such that you don't make it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnu Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 Clearly North's 5♠ showed 5 keycards and trump queen. How else would you end up in a grand? B-) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DozyDom Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 GIB's response is correct, so long as 4NT is KC in diamonds. 5S either shows 2 KCs and the Q of trumps, or guarantees a 10 card fit. If 4NT is a bid showing slam interest actually in diamonds, you're going to have 5 card support; P has only shown 3, after all. So GIB has told you what you wanted to know, hopefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smerriman Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 GIB's response is correct, so long as 4NT is KC in diamonds. 5S either shows 2 KCs and the Q of trumps, or guarantees a 10 card fit. If 4NT is a bid showing slam interest actually in diamonds, you're going to have 5 card support; P has only shown 3, after all. So GIB has told you what you wanted to know, hopefully.This is correct. GIB's definition of 1♦ shows 3+ diamonds, and its definition of 4NT shows 5+ diamonds. With a guaranteed 10 card fit, 5♠ is the correct response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spotlight7 Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 Did I misinterpret this response to 4NT - what was GIB telling me? GIB North opens with this hand[hv=pc=n&n=skj92hj3dak654ck8]133|100[/hv]E and W pass throughout.I have:[hv=pc=n&s=saq86hk52dqtcajt2]133|100[/hv]North opens 1♦. I'm pretty excited. I have 16HCP. I'm thinking slam.I ask for Aces.North "thinks" for a moment and then replies: 5♠ Two or five key cards; queen -- 3+ ♦; 11-21 HCP; ♦Q; 12-22 total points Seriously? I blame myself for bidding 7NT which West - holding the ♥A doubled. LIN Did you notice that 4N showed 20+HCP and 7NT promised 25+? This means that you overbid by 4+HCP for 4N and by 9+HCP for 7N. Bidding slams on HCP is often suggested as 33 for 6N and 37 for 7N. Your results would likely greatly improve if you allowed partner to 'limit' their values. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nullve Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 Possible explanations of the 5♠ response to RKC, in order of accuracy: 1) 2 or 5 key cards, no void and either the trump queen or compensating trump length2) 2 or 5 key cards and either the trump queen or compensating trump length3) 2 or 5 key cards and the trump queen4) 2 key cards and the trump queen 5) 2 aces and the trump queen I've only heard equivalents of 2)-5) at the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nekthen Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 The lesson is take it slow and dont mastermind partner. Playing with a human, I hope that you would simply respond 1♠ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huibertus Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 The robot system allows for a 3crd 1♦ opening. For you to jump straight into 4NT for keycards therefore implies a 5 card ♦. Norht holding a 5 card♦ therefore "knows" the combined hands hold 10+ trumps and therefore of course he promissed trump Q, + the 2 keycards it actually holds. I would do the same. By the way, you hold two keycards, how do you assess the combined number of keycards, 2+2 = 4 or 2+5 = 7? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilowsky Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 :). You are all completely right. What I have learned this week is how to take it slow. I figured that I might be able to finagle into 6NT without giving too much away, but in the end, outsmarted myself. Something which I'm sure you will all agree should not be too hard to do. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 :). You are all completely right. What I have learned this week is how to take it slow. I figured that I might be able to finagle into 6NT without giving too much away, but in the end, outsmarted myself. Something which I'm sure you will all agree should not be too hard to do. Were your opponents robots as well? In that case I don’t think it’s possible to give too much away. A robot wouldn’t know what to do with the information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 What was your plan if partner showed 1/4 keycards? You're pretty much screwed. Note that you want to be declaring the hand in Spades.No never were able to explore strain. Note also that partner is much more likely to hold two key cards than 5.Bidding 7N is unilateral at best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsLawsd Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 :). You are all completely right. What I have learned this week is how to take it slow. I figured that I might be able to finagle into 6NT without giving too much away, but in the end, outsmarted myself. Something which I'm sure you will all agree should not be too hard to do. You are working your way into being a fine player. The best reason to start with 1♠ is that you will play the contract more often from your side and rate to play it better from the South hand. GIB does some strange things- not surprising given the programming limitations.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD350LC Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 You are working your way into being a fine player. The best reason to start with 1♠ is that you will play the contract more often from your side and rate to play it better from the South hand. GIB does some strange things- not surprising given the programming limitations....I have learned years ago that it is a rare hand that would merit going 4NT, especially after a minor suit opening bid. As a minimum, you do need 20+ hcp to consider this, and no worthless doubletons.Generally, it is better to look for a fit in a major suit before making the key card inquiry. Remember, the main purpose of Blackwood is to keep you out of bad slams, not to get you to one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilG007 Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 dak654ck8]133|100[/hv]E and W pass throughout.I have:[hv=pc=n&s=saq86hk52dqtcajt2]133|100[/hv]North opens 1♦. I'm pretty excited. I have 16HCP. I'm thinking slam.I ask for Aces.North "thinks" for a moment and then replies: 5♠ Two or five key cards; queen -- 3+ ♦; 11-21 HCP; ♦Q; 12-22 total points Seriously? I blame myself for bidding 7NT which West - holding the ♥A doubled. LIN Why the hurry? What's the rush? Why not respond a simple 1♠ to find out more about your partner's hand?Over 1♠ its highly likely GIB would bid 3 ♠ NOW is the time to go slamming.The tragedy is looking at the two hands,6♠ is eminently playable.The lesson is if you know where you're going ,go there quickly. In this case you couldn't know what the final outcome was going to be.In these situations it's a wise player who goes forward softly softly.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 [hv=lin=st||pn|pilowsky,~~M1051qp8,~~M7329pi7,~~M1117r46|md|3SAQ86HK52DQTCAJT2,ST74HAT74DJ8C9643,SKJ92HJ3DAK654CK8,S53HQ986D9732CQ75|sv|e|rh||ah|Board%209|mb|1D|an|Minor%20suit%20opening%20--%203+%20!D;%2011-21%20HCP;%2012-22%20total%20points%20|mb|P|mb|4N|an|Blackwood%20(D)%20--%205+%20!D;%2020+%20total%20points|mb|P|mb|5S|an|Two%20or%20five%20key%20cards;%20queen%20--%203+%20!D;%2011-21%20HCP;%20!DQ;%2012-22%20total%20points%20|mb|P|mb|5N|an|Query%20kings.%20Have%20all%20keycards.%20Does%20not%20promise%20extras%20--%205+%20!D;%20!DQ;%2020+%20total%20points|mb|P|mb|6C|an|King%20of%20C%20--%203+%20!D;%2011-21%20HCP;%20!CK;%20!DQ;%2012-22%20total%20points%20|mb|P|mb|7N|an|5+%20!D;%2025+%20HCP;%20!DQ|mb|D|an|4+%20HCP%20|mb|P|mb|P|mb|P|pc|HA|pc|H3|pc|H6|pc|H2|pc|H4|pc|HJ|pc|HQ|pc|HK|pc|DQ|pc|D8|pc|D4|pc|D9|pc|DT|pc|DJ|pc|DK|pc|D3|pc|DA|pc|D2|pc|H5|pc|S4|pc|CK|pc|C5|pc|C2|pc|C6|pc|C8|pc|CQ|pc|CA|pc|C3|pc|CJ|pc|C4|pc|D5|pc|C7|pc|CT|pc|C9|pc|D6|pc|S5|pc|SA|pc|S7|pc|S2|pc|S3|pc|SQ|pc|ST|pc|S9|pc|D7|pc|S8|pc|H7|pc|SK|pc|H8|pc|SJ|pc|H9|pc|S6|pc|HT|]300|300|PhilG007 suggests a better auction:1♦ - 1♠3♠ - 4N5♠ - 6♠Unless West leads ♥A, 6♠ requires good views. Suppose west leads a trump. You might try ♠AKJ, ♦QKA, ♦ ruff, ♣K, ♦6, ♠9. It seems that East must bare ♥Q eliminating a guess.[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 1♦ - 1♠3♠ - 4N5♠ - 6♠Still rushing to bid 4NT? Would it not make sense to check whether a ♦ control is held first? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huibertus Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 I'd imagine that a standard treatment for 4NT in this situation would be quantitative. I'd imagine that would be madness. A 1 ♦ is far too unlimited for a quantative NT repsonse. It is a 12-21 HCP opening. Would opener be expected to accept with a non minimal hand of 14HCP or would a maximum of 21 be the requirement? How would opening hand be expected to handle the potential two or three suiters with a void holding minimal values? 4NT simply cannot be quantative, you need a tight range in strength AND shape in order for that to make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dokoko Posted July 19, 2020 Report Share Posted July 19, 2020 The 4NT bid got what it deserved. Why on earth do you think that with 16 HCP opposite an opening slam only depends on the number of aces held? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.