what is north's bid

[phoenixmj]

[hv=pc=n&n=s64hqtdkq432cakq4&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=p1d3s]133|200[/hv]

 

What is north's bid? The 3S bid is preemptive. Thanks in advance.

[helene_t]

4♠ or double? Double is ok, it doesn't promise hearts.

 

I think I prefer to show my diamond support.

[mikeh]

4♠ or double? Double is ok, it doesn't promise hearts.

 

I think I prefer to show my diamond support.

Surely that ‘doesn’t promise hearts’ is a matter of agreement. If one plays thrump doubles, this is fine. Partner will still bid 4H with 4 and no spade stop, but our 5D will be to play.

 

The danger is if one is not playing thrump doubles, then partner will bid 4H even with a spade stopper, and while 5D rates to be safe, it isn’t perhaps as safe as would be 3N.

 

As for 4S, I prefer that to show a spade control. Otherwise, we are in a guessing game in terms of slam bidding.

 

As it happens, I’d double rather than raise diamonds. In one partnership I do play thrump doubles, in the other, I’d wing it and hope fo4 the best.

[msjennifer]

Sir,

Lacking any predefined agreement,We shall bid FIVE DIAMONDS.

[ritongilb]

4 spades

[nudnikbp]

5D if you don't have a regular partnership.

[bluenikki]

Surely that ‘doesn’t promise hearts’ is a matter of agreement. If one plays thrump doubles, this is fine. Partner will still bid 4H with 4 and no spade stop, but our 5D will be to play.

 

The danger is if one is not playing thrump doubles, then partner will bid 4H even with a spade stopper, and while 5D rates to be safe, it isn’t perhaps as safe as would be 3N.

 

As for 4S, I prefer that to show a spade control. Otherwise, we are in a guessing game in terms of slam bidding.

 

As it happens, I’d double rather than raise diamonds. In one partnership I do play thrump doubles, in the other, I’d wing it and hope fo4 the best.

 

If opener lacks the [diamonds ace, 3NT is certainly not safer than 5♦. If opener bids 3NT whenever he stops ♠ , how will you know?

[phikappaph]

5D if you don't have a regular partnership.

 

I agree with the 5D bid as the preempt has pretty much removed finding out how many keycards the partnership has. Without specific understanding about what 4S or doubling means, 5D to me is the safer bid. If I were going to risk the hand on a left field bid, I would bid 6D. That probably is making a claim about spades which is false. If partner has 2 losing spades, bummer. So, 5D is my vote.

[mikeh]

If opener lacks the [diamonds ace, 3NT is certainly not safer than 5♦. If opener bids 3NT whenever he stops ♠ , how will you know?

 

 

 

Partner is allowed to think. In any event, the odds are overwhelming that he has the diamond Ace, or two spade stoppers (if he bids 3N) or that the spade preemptor has no entry. Finally, if we lack the diamond Ace, 5D may not make either.

 

Let me know should you develop a bidding method that allows you to bid over preempt with 100% accuracy😊

 

Meanwhile, I’m playing what I see as the percentages. Btw, my biggest fear, for my suggested double, is not failing in 3N but missing slam should partner bid it. But I don’t know how to bid slam with confidence opposite, say, Ax KJx Axxxx Jxx anyway. Preempt sometimes work, and I learned a long time ago that aiming to hit the perfect spot, in such auctions, is akin to chasing moonbeams.

[bluenikki]

Partner is allowed to think. In any event, the odds are overwhelming that he has the diamond Ace, or two spade stoppers (if he bids 3N) or that the spade preemptor has no entry. Finally, if we lack the diamond Ace, 5D may not make either.

 

Let me know should you develop a bidding method that allows you to bid over preempt with 100% accuracy😊

 

Meanwhile, I’m playing what I see as the percentages. Btw, my biggest fear, for my suggested double, is not failing in 3N but missing slam should partner bid it. But I don’t know how to bid slam with confidence opposite, say, Ax KJx Axxxx Jxx anyway. Preempt sometimes work, and I learned a long time ago that aiming to hit the perfect spot, in such auctions, is akin to chasing moonbeams.

 

5♦ will make way more ofteen than 3NT.

 

You are making my point: the subtle choice between games is unavailable now. And the minor will make way moree often.

[bluenikki]

Partner is allowed to think. In any event, the odds are overwhelming that he has the diamond Ace, or two spade stoppers (if he bids 3N) or that the spade preemptor has no entry. Finally, if we lack the diamond Ace, 5D may not make either.

 

Let me know should you develop a bidding method that allows you to bid over preempt with 100% accuracy😊

 

Meanwhile, I’m playing what I see as the percentages. Btw, my biggest fear, for my suggested double, is not failing in 3N but missing slam should partner bid it. But I don’t know how to bid slam with confidence opposite, say, Ax KJx Axxxx Jxx anyway. Preempt sometimes work, and I learned a long time ago that aiming to hit the perfect spot, in such auctions, is akin to chasing moonbeams.

 

Who cares about 100%? The question is 60%.

 

The right general agreement about high preempts of partner's opening is that raises below game are forcing and jump raises are slam tries.

 

Suppose the reds were switched. You open 1♥, and over 3♠ your partner, a stranger, bids 5♥. How do you take that? "Please bid slam with a ♠ control," right?

 

Peter Weichsel advocated that the jump raise to 5 of a minor should mean the same as a jump raise to 5 of a major in the same context.

[miamijd]

There are three bids you can consider here: X, 4S, and 5D. Each has advantages and disadvantages.

 

To me:

X is cards, suggesting (but not guaranteeing 4H); partner ought to bid 3NT in preference to 4H with most hands with a spade stop

X then removing to diamonds is slammish with no spade control

4S is slammish with first or second round (probably a stiff if second-round) spade control

5D is just a game-going hand with no interest in 3NT and no slam interest (of course, if opener has a rock-crusher with a spade control, he is free to continue)

 

Double:

As MikeH pointed out, if you are playing so-called "thrump" doubles (another Bergen invention), then X works well here. It shows a game-forcing hand with (probably) no spade stop and asks partner to bid 3NT if he has a stop and thinks that appropriate. Otherwise, partner will bid 4C or 4H with four of them or lacking any of those, rebid his diamonds. If he doesn't bid 3NT, you will correct to diamonds, and partner will get the idea.

 

If X shows cards here and suggests but doesn't guarantee hearts (the way I play it), I'd also X. Same logic, really. Partner is likely to bid 3NT even with 4H if 3NT seems like a decent spot. When the opponents preempt, NT contracts are often very effective (too often the trumps break badly and the preemptor's partner is very short in preemptor's suit).

 

I wouldn't worry much about going set in 3NT. If partner lacks the Ad (which he is a big favorite to hold), he might very well have something other than Kx in spades, in which case you will still make your game if East has the Ad.

 

The only downside of double is that if partner bids 3NT, you might miss slam. If partner bid 3NT, I would be sorely tempted to bid 4D, showing slam interest with no spade control. I think I would resist that urge, but .... Oh well. Preempts work.

 

 

If X is strictly negative, then it depends how partner would take 5D over 4H. If he would take it as "Cancel that negative X; I have diamonds and a find hand (too good for a 5D bid originally), not H" then I would still X. If he would take it as a cue-bid with H as trump, I think I need to discuss system with partner.

 

4S:

To, 4S ought to show slam interest with a spade control. You don't have that here. If you bid 4S, how is partner supposed to know what to do?

 

5D:

This gives up on slam (unless opener has a huge hand), because there is no way for partner really to know whether I have a spade control. It shows a minimum game-going hand with (likely) no spade control and where 3NT doesn't look right. I would expect at least 6 diamonds for this bid.

 

If my partner could not be talked out of believing that I had 4H if I Xed, then I would bid 5D here, but I wouldn't like it. At least I would likely make a game and avoid a disaster.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[MaskyJean]

5D. South likely has nothing in spades, has to have "all" the points in the other 3 suits for his opening. I think with 16 HCP, LHO passed, partner opened 2nd seat, we almost guarantee 9+ diamond fit, and ~29 HCP. I will suppress my spade "shortage" as irrelevant for slam and 11 trick game purposes. I think, 5D it is. If partner is "extremely short" in spades, partner may still bid slam.

[Huibertus]

4♠. You must show ♦ support, and you must set up a forcing pass situation.

[miamijd]

5D. South likely has nothing in spades, has to have "all" the points in the other 3 suits for his opening. I think with 16 HCP, LHO passed, partner opened 2nd seat, we almost guarantee 9+ diamond fit, and ~29 HCP. I will suppress my spade "shortage" as irrelevant for slam and 11 trick game purposes. I think, 5D it is. If partner is "extremely short" in spades, partner may still bid slam.

 

5D isn't awful by any means, but what if partner has:

 

KQx Kxx AJxx Jxx

 

5D is going down on a ruff; 3NT will make four. Don't you want partner to be able to bid 3NT with hands like these?

 

That's why I think a X here should guarantee cards (game force) and only mildly suggest four hearts. A lot of times on these sorts of hands you're better off in 3NT even if you have a 4-4 H fit.

[PhilG007]

[hv=pc=n&n=s64hqtdkq432cakq4&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=p1d3s]133|200[/hv]

 

What is north's bid? The 3S bid is preemptive. Thanks in advance.

 

I would bid 5♦ setting the suit and inviting partner to go to slam

if he has anything extra in reserve for his bid. The spade pre-empt is bothersome

but that is the nature of the game. The opponents are there to obstruct you.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&n=s64hqtdkq432cakq4&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=p1d3s]133|200|

PhoenixMJ "What is north's bid? The 3S bid is preemptive."

+++++++++++++++++++++++

I rank

1. 4♠ = CUE S/T with ♦ support.

2. 5♦ = NAT Slight underbid.

3. 6♦ = NAT Overbid.

4. Double = NEG. But without discussion, partner might assume 4+ ♥s.

5. 4♣ = ART Gerber (In some partnerships, I play 4♣ = Key-card Gerber, agreeing the most likely suit, whenever it sensibly could be. In that context it's a fair effort :) ) [/hv]

[hrothgar]

Nasty nasty question

 

I suspect that I would double

 

I admit to being terribly tempted to just bid 3N

[bluenikki]

I would bid 5♦ setting the suit and inviting partner to go to slam

if he has anything extra in reserve for his bid. The spade pre-empt is bothersome

but that is the nature of the game. The opponents are there to obstruct you.

But will partner know not to bid slam with 2 ♠ losers?

 

I think 5♦ must strongly urge slam with ♠ control and demand a pass with none.

[TylerE]

5. 4♣ = ART Gerber (In some partnerships, I play 4♣ = Key-card Gerber, agreeing the most likely suit, whenever it sensibly could be. In that context it's a fair effort :) ) [/hv]

 

No no no no no no. How the HELL can 4♣ be gerber here? That is just DUMB.

[akwoo]

No no no no no no. How the HELL can 4♣ be gerber here? That is just DUMB.

 

Actually I think it's a reasonable agreement for this situation.

 

I want 4N to be quantitative balanced invite with a stopper, and, besides, making it a keycard ask will frequently put you too high when you wanted to stop in 5D.

 

I want 4S to be a general force, usually with diamond support.

 

I want 4H to be natural.

 

I want 4D to be purely competitive.

 

I want 4C to be natural too, but this seems less important than all of the above (especially at MPs).

 

I'd rather just not have keycard available, but if your partnership wants a keycard ask, it makes sense that 4C is the keycard ask.

[helene_t]

I admit to being terribly tempted to just bid 3N

Hmmm ... I think that if 3NT is the right contract, dbl will take us there also, most of the time, and sometimes righsided.

 

If p has four spades we are quite happy for him to leave in the double. And if bid 3NT, we are quite happy to make partner declare so he receives a spade lead. If we declare, p might have AJxx-KJ-Jxxxx-Jxx and we are down on a heart lead.

 

If p has less than four spades, his spade holding might need protection.

 

3NT works great if p has AQ-Jxxx-AJxx-xxx and would bid 4♥ in response to a double, but I think he should bid 3NT in response to a double. That's of course a question of style, as MikeH explains.

[AL78]

But will partner know not to bid slam with 2 ♠ losers?

 

I think 5♦ must strongly urge slam with ♠ control and demand a pass with none.

 

Wouldn't a 4♠ cue strongly urge slam interest with ♠ control?

[FelicityR]

I haven't entered the discussion here yet, but given the OP is from the USA so presumably playing a strong no trump, opener may only have three diamonds and a weak 4432 (or a 3442) hand here. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the 3♠ pre-emptor could well be playing opposite a void or singleton. Double is the only bid - as long as it is seen as competitive with game values but not necessarily a ♥ suit - that will either result in us arriving in 3NT, bidding beyond 3NT, or collecting a 500+ penalty when West has stretched their meagre values pre-empting 3♠ opposite a passed partner on a rubbish suit such as ♠Q876542 with an outside K and some shape. Some players take extreme liberties here :)

 

So presumably what you eventually bid here is a matter of style, partnership agreements, and sizing up how the opposition bid pre-empts. I don't disagree with bidding 5♦ with a pick-up partner, but X seems the most flexible bid that doesn't lose bidding space and conveys some information to partner.

[apollo1201]

No no no no no no. How the HELL can 4♣ be gerber here? That is just DUMB.

Reminds me of a story somewhere (can’t remember where, dunno if truth or myth, but quite funny).

 

A good and famous player / teacher / author playing with a sponsor in a big tournament. The sponsor says « whenever I bid 4C, it is Gerber, period ».

 

They move to a table and the professional opens 3C. His LHO overcalls 3 in a major and the sponsor bids 4C. Alert. RHO asks « alert? » and the pro mumbles something like « erber ». RHO asks again sorry I didn’t understand. The pro blemishes / turns red and properly articulates « Gerber ». The RHO was actually Mister Gerber himself!