The wrong slam

[AL78]

Here is the third slam mess up in the same evening. We had the missed cold slam, the slam I went looking for which wasn't there, and ended up going off in game, and now this one, bidding the slam that doesn't make.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sajthkt832dk93ck5&w=s8hqj65dqj85ct642&n=sk97532ha97d7caq3&e=sq64h4dat642cj987&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=p1sp2hp4hp4np5hp6hppp]399|300[/hv]

 

4NT is RKCB. We do play Jacoby 2NT but partner chose not to use it here, probably because of the lack of a fourth spade.

 

I think she only made nine tricks in the end. South can make 6♠ and 6NT, assuming West doesn't lead a diamond, the play requires correctly picking up the ♠Q and running the spades and clubs, squeezing West out of clubs and down to his bare ♦A, then throwing him in with it, forcing him to open up the hearts. Easy when you can see all four hands, not so easy to find at the table.

 

I thought my hand was too good for a minimum raise to 3♥, but my jump to game and the double fit was enough to get partner slamming.

 

This is what happens when slam hands come up very rarely, we make a pigs ear of it when one does finally come up.

[smerriman]

You're missing an ace and the queen of trumps. So not passing 5♥ seems rather bizarre? I wouldn't want to be in 6♠ either..

[mikeh]

What methods are you playing? I think that in most standard based methods (I don’t know about acol), a raise to 3H is forcing. Since I play 2/1, I don’t have this issue.

 

If 3H is forcing (the game seems to me to be tough enough without having to jump everytime one has any extras), the 4H was an error. A popular way to play 4H, in 2/1 anyway, is as a picture bid...5=4 in the majors, no extras. Usually 5422, since with 5431 one can splinter.

 

However, south seems to have understood that North was showing extras, since keycard is otherwise pretty silly.

 

But, as smerriman points out, slam is dubious after the 5H response. Even If south expected 4 card support, there is often a trump loser, and south doesn’t know about the spade honours...surely the queen could be missing

 

Btw, J2N would be a terrible action by south. And, in spades, one doesn't correctly’ guess spades. Absent some clue, which I doubt would be present, the ‘correct’ way to play spades is to play the Ace first. One cannot guard against 4-0 spades in east without taking a first round hook, losing to a stiff Queen or Qx in west.one can, however, pick up Qxxx in west by cashing the Ace first. Once one does that, which is the ‘correct’ way to play the suit, one can never make.

 

And the notion of playing for a squeeze (doesn’t east hold the diamond ace in your layout) is absurd. The correct, if losing, play is to lead towards the diamond King. If east pops, you have a heart pitch. If he ducks, you avoid your diamond loser.

 

 

Analyzing hands by looking at the lie of the cards, and concluding that the winning line is the correct line is a very good way of becoming or remaining a bad bridge player😊

[AL78]

What methods are you playing? I think that in most standard based methods (I don’t know about acol), a raise to 3H is forcing. Since I play 2/1, I don’t have this issue.

 

No 3♥ wouldn't be forcing, it could be a minimum opening hand with heart support, we are not playing 2/1.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

North should bid 4D instead of 4H, this wont stop South from asking for KCs, but I think it is a better bid.

Assuming 4NT was RKC, 5H told you, to stay out, if it was plain Blackwood, 6H is ok, but this example showes,

why RKCB is useful, it is a trump suit quality check.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

Wanting to bid game is reasonable, but I don't think I've ever had only 3 hearts for a 4♥ bid here.

 

That is what caused your partner to bid the 6th, thinking you had a 9 card fit.

 

YOu should be able to get back to spades here although you don't want to be in 6.

[P_Marlowe]

No 3♥ wouldn't be forcing, it could be a minimum opening hand with heart support, we are not playing 2/1.

The question is, which set of hands want to pass 3M.

The situation is

#1 opening bid, Acol opening bid, but an opening bid, i.e. 12+ most of the time

#2 responder makes a 2/1 response, Acol style forcing for 1 round only, but 11+ most of the time

#3 the partnership locates a 8 card fit in a major with 23+ most of the time

 

(This also includes 1S - 2C/3D, 2S - 3S).

 

Do you really want to stop? How often is this relevant?

 

To make it relevant, you would need to open regularly (below opening strength),

and also respond with a 2/1 bid with hands, that are usually considered w2 bids.

In short: This has nothing to do with playing 2/1 forcing to game, more with partnership

tendencies.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

The question is, which set of hands want to pass 3M.

The situation is

#1 opening bid, Acol opening bid, but an opening bid, i.e. 12+ most of the time

#2 responder makes a 2/1 response, Acol style forcing for 1 round only, but 11+ most of the time

#3 the partnership locates a 8 card fit in a major with 23+ most of the time

 

(This also includes 1S - 2C/3D, 2S - 3S).

 

Do you really want to stop? How often is this relevant?

 

To make it relevant, you would need to open regularly (below opening strength),

and also respond with a 2/1 bid with hands, that are usually considered w2 bids.

In short: This has nothing to do with playing 2/1 forcing to game, more with partnership

tendencies.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

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I can easily imagine this auction and you might already be too high, 12+ and 11+ are massively too many, this is a minimum 2/1 for most and a minimum opening bid although we will open worse hands than this but not by much.

[P_Marlowe]

[hv=pc=n&s=saj752hq65dkj32c3&n=s86haj872d865ckj2]133|200[/hv]

 

I can easily imagine this auction and you might already be too high, 12+ and 11+ are massively too many, this is a minimum 2/1 for most and a minimum opening bid although we will open worse hands than this but not by much.

Hi,

 

I would open, but would respond 1NT with the North hand.

But this does not mean, that 2H is wrong, ..., the partnership just needs to say,

yes we want to respond 2H with the given hand, and (very important) do it at the

table.

[Cyberyeti]

Hi,

 

I would open, but would respond 1NT with the North hand.

But this does not mean, that 2H is wrong, ..., the partnership just needs to say,

yes we want to respond 2H with the given hand, and (very important) do it at the

table.

 

The problem is that in standard Acol, with a balanced hand you pass 1N with 15-16, which is very dangerous with this one. Partner can have lots of hands (AKxx, Q10x, Ax, Q10xx being one) where you play 1N with 4♥ excellent. And while we open 1♣ with that hand, standard Acol opens 1♠

[msjennifer]

No 3♥ wouldn't be forcing, it could be a minimum opening hand with heart support, we are not playing 2/1.

Sir.

I would prefer to make a simple rebid of 2S which is always a one round forcing bid.With the moderate quality of spade suit there is no justification whatsoever to support hearts with a jump immediately since

it can be done on the next round.It is best in my personal opinion to show SIX carded spades worthwhile and more so if one is playing ACOL.And there is certainly a good reason for South to shoot for a slam when opener jumps to 4 HEARTS.

LASTLY one wouldd consider it a poor proposition to visualise a slam with an ACE and the trump Queen missing.(leave alone even the HJ) in an 8 card fit.

[Cyberyeti]

Sir.

I would prefer to make a simple rebid of 2S which is always a one round forcing bid.With the moderate quality of spade suit there is no justification whatsoever to support hearts with a jump immediately since

it can be done on the next round.It is best in my personal opinion to show SIX carded spades worthwhile and more so if one is playing ACOL.And there is certainly a good reason for South to shoot for a slam when opener jumps to 4 HEARTS.

LASTLY one wouldd consider it a poor proposition to visualise a slam with an ACE and the trump Queen missing.(leave alone even the HJ) in an 8 card fit.

 

2♠ is not forcing in Acol

[Tramticket]

OP is playing Acol.

 

If 3H is forcing (the game seems to me to be tough enough without having to jump everytime one has any extras), the 4H was an error.

 

An easier hand if playing 2/1 I agree.

 

I would open, but would respond 1NT with the North hand.

 

No, 1NT shows 6-9 in Acol. Partner will never believe that we have a strong 10-count with three-card support and a good five-card holding in the other major!

 

I would prefer to make a simple rebid of 2S which is always a one round forcing bid. […] It is best in my personal opinion to show SIX carded spades worthwhile and more so if one is playing ACOL.

No, a 2 spade rebid is not forcing in standard Acol. Partner will often bid again but there is no obligation.

No, a 2 spade rebid does not promise a six-card suit in Acol – imagine a minimum hand with 5 spades and 4 diamonds (5242 maybe) – There is no other bid than 2 spades.

 

Wanting to bid game is reasonable, but I don't think I've ever had only 3 hearts for a 4♥ bid here.

 

I have. With five spades and four hearts, I will often have a splinter available and since partner has guaranteed a five-card heart suit I would expect this 1S-2H-4H auction to show a three-card holding much of the time. The auction does consume a lot of space but it has conveyed some inferences about the hand: strong enough to play in game opposite a 10-count, but not strong enough to bid a forcing 2NT followed by 4H or 4S. So, would I ace-ask after this sequence? I’m not sure …

 

Analyzing hands by looking at the lie of the cards, and concluding that the winning line is the correct line is a very good way of becoming or remaining a bad bridge player😊

 

This is the wisest thing that has been said so far in this thread. I find it very difficult to comment objectively on what I would have done when I can see all four hands.

[Cyberyeti]

 

No, 1NT shows 6-9 in Acol. Partner will never believe that we have a strong 10-count with three-card support and a good five-card holding in the other major!

 

I think he was talking about the 9 count I posted

 

I have. With five spades and four hearts, I will often have a splinter available and since partner has guaranteed a five-card heart suit I would expect this 1S-2H-4H auction to show a three-card holding much of the time. The auction does consume a lot of space but it has conveyed some inferences about the hand: strong enough to play in game opposite a 10-count, but not strong enough to bid a forcing 2NT followed by 4H or 4S. So, would I ace-ask after this sequence? I’m not sure …

 

We play the splinter differently to you so it's not available most of the time. 2N for us can be unbalanced so I would probably bid it here (showing nothing more than a minimum GF with 5+♠), partner bids 3♠ (3 spades, 5 hearts, (32)) I bid 4♠ to show a minimum GF and we will play 4 or 5 spades depending on how optimistic partner gets.

[Huibertus]

Plain and simple overbidding. You don't want to be in any slam.

 

Why would anyone pick up ♠ queen against the odds? Why would Diamond King sit over the Ace so you can park the ♥ loser that is almost always there?

 

And then on the bidding, surely 3 ♥ helps a lot if partner bids 3 ♠. That is exactly the thing you want to hear, now being north you would be interested in a minimal value slam if Partner does have an ace, queen of trumps (and the jack if he has ♦ ace) and the king of clubs, that would be enough, in hearts you need a lot more, and you have the added risk of being down trick two after ♠ ace ♠ ruffed.

[Left2Right]

Eddie Kantar⁽¹⁾ reminds us that using 4NT (RKCB) is a no-no when you yourself are staring at neither the queen nor the jack of trump unless the partnership has a known 10-card or better fit.

 

Accuracy in your slamming abilities will be MIA until you adopt two methods.

1. knowing how many trumps one partner or the other promises.
   
2. knowing how to cue bid controls to the point where both partners realize there is insufficient trump quality to proceed to a slam.
   

* The 2/1 system (strictly observed) will accomplish the first.

* Uncle Eddie's little tome cited below will provide the second.

 

Cheers.

 

Charles A. Lee

 

(1) Kantar, Eddie. Roman Keycard Blackwood, The Final Word. print. Master Point Press. Toronto. 5th Ed. 2008. page 11.

[msjennifer]

Sir,if ,as cyberyeti describes,a rebid of 2S is not even forcing for one round then I wonder what the 2H response is forcing upto in ACOL.,This I wish to know for my personal knowledge only.Or is the 2H response not a forcing response at all.( is a passable bid),How do they show a six card spade suit(since it appears that even it may be a 4 card suit when one opens 1S in ACOL. I was of the belief that 2H response was forcing upto 2Nt or 3H.Indeed if one can not make rebid of 2S to describe the given hand in ACOL,then no wonder the system has been abandoned almost universally.

 

 

[bluenikki]

Here is the third slam mess up in the same evening. We had the missed cold slam, the slam I went looking for which wasn't there, and ended up going off in game, and now this one, bidding the slam that doesn't make.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sajthkt832dk93ck5&w=s8hqj65dqj85ct642&n=sk97532ha97d7caq3&e=sq64h4dat642cj987&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=p1sp2hp4hp4np5hp6hppp]399|300[/hv]

 

4NT is RKCB. We do play Jacoby 2NT but partner chose not to use it here, probably because of the lack of a fourth spade.

 

I think she only made nine tricks in the end. South can make 6♠ and 6NT, assuming West doesn't lead a diamond, the play requires correctly picking up the ♠Q and running the spades and clubs, squeezing West out of clubs and down to his bare ♦A, then throwing him in with it, forcing him to open up the hearts. Easy when you can see all four hands, not so easy to find at the table.

 

I thought my hand was too good for a minimum raise to 3♥, but my jump to game and the double fit was enough to get partner slamming.

 

This is what happens when slam hands come up very rarely, we make a pigs ear of it when one does finally come up.

 

The literature gives not enough thought about what to do after the 5♥ response to RKCB. Just because slam is poor in the agreed suit, doesn't mean there is no good slam. How about 5NT = "pick a strain" and cheapest unbid suit for the grand slam try?

 

Of course, you shouldn't bid RKCB if you are not already sure of the best strain, but people do it all the time.

[bluenikki]

Eddie Kantar⁽¹⁾ reminds us that using 4NT (RKCB) is a no-no when you yourself are staring at neither the queen nor the jack of trump unless the partnership has a known 10-card or better fit.

 

But people do it all the time at every level. (I would wait for J10, not just J.)

[Cyberyeti]

Sir,if ,as cyberyeti describes,a rebid of 2S is not even forcing for one round then I wonder what the 2H response is forcing upto in ACOL.,This I wish to know for my personal knowledge only.Or is the 2H response not a forcing response at all.( is a passable bid),How do they show a six card spade suit(since it appears that even it may be a 4 card suit when one opens 1S in ACOL. I was of the belief that 2H response was forcing upto 2Nt or 3H.Indeed if one can not make rebid of 2S to describe the given hand in ACOL,then no wonder the system has been abandoned almost universally.

 

OK, the way it works is this.

 

1♠ is only a 4 card suit in a strong no trump or better, where you rebid 2N FG over 2♥ and catch up on the 3 card heart support if you have it later. All minimum hands are 5+ as 1♠ is not opened on 4441s and all minimum 4432s are opened 1N.

 

2♥ is F1 and forcing to 2♠, anything other than 2♠ or 3♥ is FG. While these two bids are not forcing, that is not to say they are very often passed.

 

I play a bent version of Acol where 2N doesn't have to be in any way balanced, but this is unusual.

[dsLawsd]

Eddie Kantar⁽¹⁾ reminds us that using 4NT (RKCB) is a no-no when you yourself are staring at neither the queen nor the jack of trump unless the partnership has a known 10-card or better fit.

 

Accuracy in your slamming abilities will be MIA until you adopt two methods.

1. knowing how many trumps one partner or the other promises.
   
2. knowing how to cue bid controls to the point where both partners realize there is insufficient trump quality to proceed to a slam.
   

* The 2/1 system (strictly observed) will accomplish the first.

* Uncle Eddie's little tome cited below will provide the second.

 

Absolutely is that and more. If partners work that whole book a whole new world emerges, but definitely not for the timid. It is those fine understandings and inferences that make for top class bidding (knowing that some times nothing works). perhaps ACOL needs a new revision to handle hands like this. Here also the logic of the auction showing a potential fine double fit would help and instead of RKCB try a minor suit Q followed if necessary by a show of spade support.

 

Cheers.

 

Charles A. Lee

 

(1) Kantar, Eddie. Roman Keycard Blackwood, The Final Word. print. Master Point Press. Toronto. 5th Ed. 2008. page 11.

[Cyberyeti]

One thing that occurs to me is to use a bid that we don't use for this type of hand. Since 1♠-2♥-2N is GF and unlimited in weak NT Acol, what is 1♠-2♥-3N ? For us where 2N can be unbalanced I see no downside, not sure what others use this for.

[Tramticket]

One thing that occurs to me is to use a bid that we don't use for this type of hand. Since 1♠-2♥-2N is GF and unlimited in weak NT Acol, what is 1♠-2♥-3N ? For us where 2N can be unbalanced I see no downside, not sure what others use this for.

 

For us:

2NT rebid after 2-over-1 = 15-18 Balanced (or maybe a general forcing bid e.g. on a hand too strong for 1♠-2♥-4♥)

3NT rebid after 2-over-1 = 19-20 Balanced (we are relaxed not having the space to look for a major when we are this strong)

2NT Opening 21-22 (we used to include this strength in our multi, but we now prefer to play a weak-only multi)

2♣ Opening then 2NT = 23-24

 

 

Edit: the problem with "1♠-2♥-2N is GF and unlimited in weak NT Acol" is that the range becomes too great - what strength do you need to invite slam after a 2NT rebid?

[AL78]

For us:

2NT rebid after 2-over-1 = 15-18 Balanced (or maybe a general forcing bid e.g. on a hand too strong for 1♠-2♥-4♥)

3NT rebid after 2-over-1 = 19-20 Balanced (we are relaxed not having the space to look for a major when we are this strong)

2NT Opening 21-22 (we used to include this strength in our multi, but we now prefer to play a weak-only multi)

2♣ Opening then 2NT = 23-24

 

 

Edit: the problem with "1♠-2♥-2N is GF and unlimited in weak NT Acol" is that the range becomes too great - what strength do you need to invite slam after a 2NT rebid?

 

I don't have that problem with this partner. We play 5 card majors, weak NT, and have other bids to show 19+ HCP balanced hands, so 1♠ - 2♥ - 2NT would be the equivalent of a strong NT hand.

[miamijd]

One reason you make a mess of slam bidding is that you play ACOL (SAYC has the same issue). If you don't play 2/1 or a big club system, you have no good way to force game at a low level so that you can then explore slam. You end up having to make jump bids that take up way too much room, sometimes put you in the wrong strain, and end up in a guessing game.

 

Notice how much easier it is with 2/1:

 

1S 2H

2S(1) 3S(2)

4C(3) 4D(4)

4NT 5D

5S(5)

 

(1) You can also bid 3H here - it's the same auction after 3S

(2) Having 1/2 round control in one or both minors (else 4S)

(3) non-serious slam try; club control

(4) diamond control

(5) Well, we're off an Ace and the Q of trump, so let's hope we make 5

 

You end up in the right strain. One level higher than optimal, but at least 5S makes.

 

Cheers,

Mike