Can we do better?

[AL78]

This evening was one of the more frustrating ones, both for being dealt crap and misbidding the few good hands we did pick up. This hand was weird, I'm, not sure what we could have done about it.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sa65hkj975dk8ct93&w=sqj4h86daqt2ckq74&n=sk987hat432d953c5&e=st32hqdj764caj862&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=p1np2cp2dp3cppp]399|300[/hv]

 

 

They were playing weak NT. Making 10 tricks for a unique contract joint bottom. Half the room is in 3 or 4♥ our way making, some are in 1NT by West, and a couple of EW's found a diamond partscore making9 or 10 tricks.

 

I groaned inside when declarer ruffed the escond round of hearts. I didn't think my hand was good enough for an Astro bid trying to show spades and another. I didn't think my hand was good enough to balance over 3♣, although the thought crossed my mind. What do you think, could I have been more aggressive or shall I put this down to the wrong side of randomness?

[sfi]

At least one very good person I know (several-time world champion) advocates bidding over 1NT on any hand with a singleton. I still think that's a crazy position (although my results have improved when I get more aggressive), but there is a lot of merit in looking for any excuse to bid with shapely hands here.

 

The other argument is you want to be more constructive over a weak NT than over a strong one since your side is more likely to have game. Still, you have both majors and you'll never have a safer time to show them, so acting over 1NT looks right. Balancing over 3C is much more dangerous. East has shown their suits, they know what sort of a fit they have, you're a level higher, and their doubles will now be penalty. If you don't have a fit they will punish you now, but you might have gotten away with it earlier.

[FelicityR]

Except if there is an obvious action you can take but you didn't, then it's unlikely you can do better. I don't see anything obvious here except South opening 1♥ which if you are playing Acol is unlikely to happen.

 

The East/West bidding is strange to say the least. One you have to take on the chin, unfortunately, is my humble opinion.

[pilowsky]

It's an interesting conundrum. I know of a charming young man - let's call him "angryanglican" - who is a superb player and a regular Director, Teacher and Marathon runner. He's also an expert at 2/1 and plays a strong NT. He would definitely call West's hand 1NT. I've seen him do it many times. When queried by us lesser mortals he just points to the doubleton and perhaps even to the fifth diamond. Who were we to argue? Clearly 15-17 - as he looked at us with his blonde hair in a ponytail and youthful eyes.

This sort of hand is one of the reasons I feel uncomfortable when players sit down and smugly hand me a card saying "we play Acol". They may as well say "we speak Albanian" Why do we have to learn every arcane bidding language? Especially when they all have multiple dialects. In this hand, it seems that West is saying "Hello, I have some points." East replies. "Hi, I have some Clubs", South has a five-card heart suit (so did North) but both decided to keep quiet for some reason. Then West said: "Well, I have some Diamonds". and North and South went to the pub for a beer while East and West had them for breakfast. Not sure about Astro, maybe an Aspro is in order.

[Zelandakh]

South could have opened 1NT but it is borderline. North could potentially have shown the majors though most pairs want more basic strength for such an overcall over a weak NT. And after 2♣, South can certainly come in with 2♥ given that the original pass limits the hand to a 5 card suit or around this strength. None of these actions is clear-cut.

 

Mostly though, I would say you had the misfortune to meet a pair that are completely clueless on a hand where they were able to make life difficult for you. That said, I am somewhat interested as to why Txx/Q/Jxxx/AJxxx is a 2♣ response but Kxx/Kx/xxx/QJxxx just a pass. I did find some incredibly bad bidding and distinctly lax disclosure from this pair but nothing else that could be considered questionable aside perhaps from:

(1NT) [12-14] - P - (2NT) [♦] - X;

(3♣) [♦Hxx+] - P - (3♦) - 3♠

 

with AJxx/Axxx/-/KJxxx (finding 4 spades opposite). But this pair is bad enough that that could easily just be put down to luck. It is the sort of thing that happens sometimes with such pairs and you just have to accept it and move on.

[Zelandakh]

Not sure about Astro, maybe an Aspro is in order.

Astro, Aspro and Asptro are all popular 1NT defences, particularly in the UK.

 

It is not right to say that the E-W pair on the board play Acol. A weak NT yes but they also seem to play a 2♦ opening as any 18-19hcp and 2♣ as 20+ but with the (otherwise unexplained) agreement that 2♣ - 2♦; 3♣ is not forcing. I daresay they would do better if they actually did play Acol...

[nige1]

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AL78 'This hand was weird, I'm, not sure what we could have done about it.'

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

A bit unlucky. I suppose ...

South might open the bidding -- but most 2/1 players need a better hand, especially when vulnerable.

After West opens 1NT, North might make a conventional overcall, especially if playing Sharples or Crowhurst (some call the latter 'Reverse Pottage' or 'Multi-Landy'). I think John Matheson (top Scottish international) would risk it, even vulnerable. [/hv]

[DavidKok]

 

They were playing weak NT. Making 10 tricks for a unique contract joint bottom. Half the room is in 3 or 4♥ our way making, some are in 1NT by West, and a couple of EW's found a diamond partscore making9 or 10 tricks.

 

I groaned inside when declarer ruffed the escond round of hearts. I didn't think my hand was good enough for an Astro bid trying to show spades and another. I didn't think my hand was good enough to balance over 3♣, although the thought crossed my mind. What do you think, could I have been more aggressive or shall I put this down to the wrong side of randomness?

 

4♥ making? That requires some help from the defenders, although you would do well to get to 3♥.

 

By opening a weak 1NT the opponents have made life difficult for you, and you need solid partnership agreements to decide if your methods are aimed at winning the battle for partscore or if they are constructive. Most people use constructive overcalls over a weak NT and competitive overcalls over a strong NT. In that case there is nothing North can do on the first round - any bid risks partner enthusiastically raising on ~11 points, which will cost in the long run.

 

I also noticed that none of the 2♣, 2♦ and 3♣ bids were alerted. Is this all natural? Or Stayman, no major, signoff with weak clubs? And in the latter case, how weak? Depending on the meaning of the bids perhaps NS could have done a bit more, but the fact is the opponents made it very difficult for you to enter the bidding.

[Tramticket]

I might have valued the South hand in the 12-14 range and opened 1NT. But I wouldn't critisise a pass. I might have over-called an aggressive, multi-Landy 2♣ or ASPTRO 2♦ at pairs, but never at teams at this vulnerabity. I am not keen on using ASTRO with a weak hand and a four-card anchor suit so I would definitely pass with your methods and couldn't critisise a pass with any methods.

 

The idea of using a 2♣ Stayman bid followed up by 3♣ to show a weak hand with clubs was certainly part of old-fashioned Acol. In the days before transfers, there was no other way to make a weakness takeout with clubs. But even in those days, the advice was that you should only do this with a six-card or (better) a seven-card suit since you were proposing to play at the three level instead of the one level. The advice was also to take such an escape with a very weak hand, but sit 1NT with the balance of the points. This action might be part of their methods, but I think that Zelandakh is probably right - they are very poor players.

[Douglas43]

Unless there is an undisclosed method here (or pilowski is right and 2C is natural) East's bidding seems poor.

 

If 2C is Stayman despite the lack of alert I have no idea what East would do over a 2H reply?

 

I would though be inclined to make a balancing double over 3C at matchpoints, even at game all. Certainly at any other score.

[pilowsky]

Who can ever tell what people are up to let me quote from Mike Lawrence "Judgment at Bridge 2" Playing against Experts: The better your opponents are, the more aggressive you need to be. Experts will win out most of the time. They have years of experience and they know how to..." you get the idea. I have taken this advice to heart. When playing against experts I am reliably crazier. I know that they will stick to their card and bid Lebensohl or make a passive lead in No Trumps. All kinds of stuff that I would never do with a less accomplished player is great against an expert. They are super-reliable. A poor player is only a poor player if they get a poor result. By the way, the Aspro I was talking about was the medicinal kind. And yes I'm aware of the other type. btw how hard is to spell Pilowsky It's right there in front of you!

[Cyberyeti]

Unless there is an undisclosed method here (or pilowski is right and 2C is natural) East's bidding seems poor.

 

If 2C is Stayman despite the lack of alert I have no idea what East would do over a 2H reply?

 

I would though be inclined to make a balancing double over 3C at matchpoints, even at game all. Certainly at any other score.

 

It could be that their only way of playing 3♣ is going via stayman, or they play 1N-2♣-2any-3♣ as to play with a 4 card major and a club suit (which is the old style).

 

It's a reasonable shot to play 2♠ if partner has 4, 3♣ if they haven't.

 

This is another board where whoever opens the no trump wins the board, this is surprisingly common.

 

My feel was that I would upgrade as S, K&R gives 11.6 so it's close.

[msjennifer]

[sir,

I can make only one comment here.

One has to shed down the requirements of Landy or any other defensive gadget(or convention if you prefer it that way) when opponents are playing a weak NT. Failing to do this at the earliest shall rob you of any competitive contract and perhaps may result in double game swing.

.We do bid aggressively(since we play a 13/15 Precision NT and so have realised long back the need to come in early if opponents play the same.)Quote an example from actual life.RHO opens 1NT and you hold ♠Q764♥AQ953♦VOID♣10652. ONLY 8 HCP as some" pointers" would say.Most would pass I presume.My partner overcalled 2C((LANDY).After some enquiries

,(I felt passing UI)),LHO passed.The bidding continued 1NT-2♣-P-P-2♦-3♣-4♠-5♣-P-P-DBL(Rocking the roof away).RESULT --5♣doubled made with one overtrickThe only double dummy loser was a spade.I had ""only 9 points." In the other room our opponents kept silent throughout and the result- 3NT scored by our pair when a normal heart lead was made.A club lead would result in the defence taking first 8 tricks for minus four.

[Sir John D]

I am an Acol player

 

With South's hand, I would open 1♥ as I would use high card points and length points to create a 12 point hand. As I have a 5-card major, then I do not open 1NT. If my partner changes suit, then I would rebid 2♥ to show a minimum hand (ie 12-14 points) and at least five hearts

 

If I had been East, then I would also have used 2♣ as Non-Promissory Stayman (obviously by agreement). I might have been tempted to pass the 2♦ reply as it shows that West does not hold a 4-card major. A bit of a risk, but West may have length in one or both minors. At worst, it may be a 4-2 fit. But, if my diamond suit had been 3 or less cards, then I would have rebid 3♣. This would be my way of showing a weak hand (ie 0-10 points) and 5+ ♣. If I had held a strong hand, then I would have jumped to 3♣ in response to the opening 1NT bid. The NP bit of Stayman is to cover weak minor suit and not necessarily having a 4-card major.

 

North has a difficult decision with regard to using a defence to the 1NT opening by West as there are not many points. If only using the bid to show shape, then could use whatever their agreement would be (eg Pottage, Landy).

 

If North is responding to South's opening of 1♥, then they may raise to 3♥ to show 10-12 points and support (using high card points and shortage points) or even 4♥ if they use the losing trick count (reducing by 1 loser for the fit). As the cards lie, N/S would need a gift to make 10 tricks

[Cyberyeti]

 

If North is responding to South's opening of 1♥, then they may raise to 3♥ to show 10-12 points and support (using high card points and shortage points) or even 4♥ if they use the losing trick count (reducing by 1 loser for the fit). As the cards lie, N/S would need a gift to make 10 tricks

 

They don't need much of a gift, very easy to fail to overtake K♣ at trick 1 and that's all it needs. Yes you should find this, but very easy not to.

[msjennifer]

I might have valued the South hand in the 12-14 range and opened 1NT. But I wouldn't critisise a pass. I might have over-called an aggressive, multi-Landy 2♣ or ASPTRO 2♦ at pairs, but never at teams at this vulnerabity. I am not keen on using ASTRO with a weak hand and a four-card anchor suit so I would definitely pass with your methods and couldn't critisise a pass with any methods.

 

The idea of using a 2♣ Stayman bid followed up by 3♣ to show a weak hand with clubs was certainly part of old-fashioned Acol. In the days before transfers, there was no other way to make a weakness takeout with clubs. But even in those days, the advice was that you should only do this with a six-card or (better) a seven-card suit since you were proposing to play at the three level instead of the one level. The advice was also to take such an escape with a very weak hand, but sit 1NT with the balance of the points. This action might be part of their methods, but I think that Zelandakh is probably right - they are very poor players.

Sir,

I agree with you fully.In fact we playing Precision with a forcing 1NT response would always open the South hand 1H as it does possess 4 controls and a decent 5 card heart suit.

[miamijd]

I don't play ACOL, so my comments on the bidding wouldn't be very informative.

 

But I don't understand why so many UK players seem to like ASTRO and its variants. That's so 1970s. There are many better things to play over a weak NT: Mohan, modified Woolsey (so that the X is penalty), modified Meckwell (same sort of thing), etc.

[nullve]

I don't play ACOL, so my comments on the bidding wouldn't be very informative.

 

But I don't understand why so many UK players seem to like ASTRO and its variants. That's so 1970s. There are many better things to play over a weak NT: Mohan, modified Woolsey (so that the X is penalty), modified Meckwell (same sort of thing), etc.

A Weak NT defence should ideally be able to separate at least all the following hand types without touching the double:

 

* 4+S5+H

* 5+S4+H

* 6+M3-OM

* 5M3-OM4+m

* 4M3-OM5+m.

 

Asptro (part of the Astro family) can do that. Mohan, modified Woolsey and modified Meckwell cannot.

[AL78]

I don't play ACOL, so my comments on the bidding wouldn't be very informative.

 

But I don't understand why so many UK players seem to like ASTRO and its variants. That's so 1970s. There are many better things to play over a weak NT: Mohan, modified Woolsey (so that the X is penalty), modified Meckwell (same sort of thing), etc.

 

It is simple to remember and allows you to get into the bidding with any two suited hand of suitable playing strength, if you use 2NT for the minors.

 

I would like to play multi-Landy and have suggested it to a couple of partners, but there is a lot to remember after the initial overcall, and it is hard to practice it because it hardly ever comes up.

[A Nunemake]

Why are the same hands repeated over and over. I started playing in March and I’ve play the exact same hand as many as half a dozen times!

[TylerE]

It is simple to remember and allows you to get into the bidding with any two suited hand of suitable playing strength, if you use 2NT for the minors.

 

I would like to play multi-Landy and have suggested it to a couple of partners, but there is a lot to remember after the initial overcall, and it is hard to practice it because it hardly ever comes up.

 

Frankly I think that plain vanilla Landy (X = Pen, 2♣ = Majors, followed by 2♦=No Preference, 2♦+ natural) is better than 95% of what people play against NT. The big thing is using 2c for the majors...with 2d available as no preference, you can (and arguably) should do it with 5-4, or even 4-4 if you're really aggressive.

 

Especially at matchpoints I think you lose very little by not being to show two suiters including a minor. You always end up playing those at the 3 level anyway, which is just poison.

[johnu]

Why are the same hands repeated over and over. I started playing in March and I’ve play the exact same hand as many as half a dozen times!

Are you getting better results than the 1st time?

[AL78]

Frankly I think that plain vanilla Landy (X = Pen, 2♣ = Majors, followed by 2♦=No Preference, 2♦+ natural) is better than 95% of what people play against NT. The big thing is using 2c for the majors...with 2d available as no preference, you can (and arguably) should do it with 5-4, or even 4-4 if you're really aggressive.

 

Especially at matchpoints I think you lose very little by not being to show two suiters including a minor. You always end up playing those at the 3 level anyway, which is just poison.

 

Multi-Landy is just a step up from that, with 2♦ showing one of the majors, and 2♥/♠ showing five of that suit and four of a minor. It allows more opportunity to compete at the cost of not being able to immediately show a major. It is the second round bids I haven't got nailed down yet.

 

I have played Astro for years, because I learnt it a long time ago and almost everyone I have played with knows it. My main problem with it is it seems to be a good way of getting a bottom by going off in a seven card fit when we could have taken 1NT off. Might be better to play that the anchor suit has five.

[Zelandakh]

Multi-Landy is just a step up from that, with 2♦ showing one of the majors, and 2♥/♠ showing five of that suit and four of a minor. It allows more opportunity to compete at the cost of not being able to immediately show a major. It is the second round bids I haven't got nailed down yet.

 

I have played Astro for years, because I learnt it a long time ago and almost everyone I have played with knows it. My main problem with it is it seems to be a good way of getting a bottom by going off in a seven card fit when we could have taken 1NT off. Might be better to play that the anchor suit has five.

Asptro is actually a good defence and even sees play at international level. Funnily enough, one of its drawbacks compared with Multi-Landy is regarded as being complexity.

 

For Multi-Landy, one set of follow-ups would be:-

 

2♣

... - 2♦ = relay, equal length or constructive

... - ... - 2♥ = longer/better hearts

... - ... - ... - 2♠ = 4+♠, INV

... - ... - ... - 2NT = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♣ = min

... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - others = max

... - ... - ... - 3m = nat, constrtuctive

... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 3+♥, INV

... - ... - 2♠ = longer/better spades

... - ... - ... - 2NT = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♣ = min

... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - others = max

... - ... - ... - 3m = nat, constructive

... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 4+♥, INV

... - ... - ... - 3♠ = 3+♠, INV

... - 2M = preference

... - 2NT = pick a minor (NB: standard Landy uses this as a forcing relay akin to 2♦ followed by 2NT in this structure)

... - 3m = to play

... - 3M = PRE

2♦

... - 2M = pass/correct

... - 2NT = relay

... - ... - 3♣ = max with ♥

... - ... - 3♦ = max with ♠

... - ... - 3M = min with M

... - 3m = nat, constructive

... - 3M = pass/correct

2♥

... - 2♠ = nat, constructive

... - 2NT = relay

... - ... - 3m = min with m

... - ... - 3♥ = max with ♣

... - ... - 3♠ = max with ♦

... - 3♣ = pass/correct

... - 3♦ = 3+♥, INV+

... - 3♥ = PRE

2♠

... - 2NT = relay

... - ... - 3m = min with m

... - ... - 3♥ = max with ♣

... - ... - 3♠ = max with ♦

... - 3♣ = pass/correct

... - 3♦ = constructive with hearts

... - 3♥ = 3+♠, INV+

... - 3♠ = PRE

--

 

There are plenty of alternatives though - most, for example, just play 2NT as asking for the minor over a 2M overcall and accept the resulting issues on constructive hands. It does help here if you also play Multi+Muiderberg for your openings, as you can use the same follow-ups to reduce memory issues.

[nullve]

Multi-Landy is just a step up from that, with 2♦ showing one of the majors, and 2♥/♠ showing five of that suit and four of a minor. It allows more opportunity to compete at the cost of not being able to immediately show a major. It is the second round bids I haven't got nailed down yet.

Not necessarily true if X = PEN, because you can no longer separate all of

 

* 6+ M

* 5M4+m

* 4M5+m

 

using only the 2♦ and 2M overcalls.

 

Btw, in Norway, what is meant by 'Multilandy' is typically

 

(1N)-?:

 

X = penalty

2♣ = both majors

2♦ = long major, could be 5M4+m

2M = 4(+)M5+m

2N = both minors.

 

[Multilandy] allows more opportunity to compete at the cost of not being able to immediately show a major. It is the second round bids I haven't got nailed down yet.

No, there is not a single hand type that is suitable for Multilandy (with or without X as PEN) but not any of the Astro-like defences. And the cost of not being able to show the major immediately should be negligible if you know how to play Multi 2♦.

 

I have played Astro for years, because I learnt it a long time ago and almost everyone I have played with knows it. My main problem with it is it seems to be a good way of getting a bottom by going off in a seven card fit when we could have taken 1NT off. Might be better to play that the anchor suit has five.

Before doing anything more drastic, how about

 

* switching to Asptro (in terms of handling major 2-suiters: Astro/Cappelletti/DONT < Asptro < Landy/Mohan/Multilandy)

* not overcalling with 4M5m22 (worse than 4M5m(31) if cross-ruffs are needed)

 

?