3 Card Frocing Bid

[jerdonald]

BBO,

Not playing 2/1

 

Partner opened 1 Spade and I held:

 

S T93

H AKJ5

C QJ6

D 874

 

Partner thinks, in this instance, I should have bid that 4 card heart

suit even though that should always show 5+ cards. I bid the stronger

minor, clubs, as a forcing bid. My point was I have a lot of options

and would like to hear his next bid at the 2 level.

 

Any comments?

Jerry D

[sfi]

There are two considerations here, which unfortunately don't lead to a clear answer on this hand.

1. If you have to, lie about length in a minor rather than a major. You're much more likely to care about game in the major.
   
2. Don't bid weak suits in strong auctions.
   

All of this depends on your agreed system. But assuming you don't have a clear way to handle these hands, your options are 2H and show five cards or 2m and show 4 cards. Point 1 suggests choosing a minor. Point 2 suggests choosing 2H with a second choice of 2D.

 

I think point 1 is really important, so would rule out 2H. If my diamonds or my overall hand were better I would choose 2D to help partner evaluate what values are useful. But given we're only invitational and I want to give partner as much room as possible, I would try 2C playing standard.

 

On a side note, other systems handle this hand in a number of ways. A forcing or semi-forcing NT is common. An artificial 2C incorporating an invitational raise is frequent around here. Some people also have a bid just for a three-card invitation (3H is not uncommon) or just make a limit raise on these hands and don't worry about whether they have four-card support.

[Vampyr]

On a side note, other systems handle this hand in a number of ways. A forcing or semi-forcing NT is common.

 

A forcing NT might work out, but a semi-forcing NT may work out badly. Opposite a weak NT (the hands partner will pass on) you will most often want to be playing in spades.

 

This is why I have begun to think that playing 2/1 GF with a weak NT is a good idea. Opener doesn’t have to find another bid if she had a weak NT, because she will already have bid it. Also suit openings will be sounder either in high cards or playing strength, which means that responder can show his hand with a 2/1 much more frequently instead of piling nearly all responses into 2/1 GF’s bastard stepchild, the forcing 1NT.

[FelicityR]

...piling nearly all responses into 2/1 GF’s bastard stepchild, the forcing 1NT.

 

That's the funniest description of the clunky 1NT response I have heard, Vampyr. Made me smile first thing this morning :)

 

As for the OP's forum post, my partner and I use constructive raises to the two level to show this hand: 3 card support and 8-11 HCPs. That's a way around it, if you are playing a 5M opening system.

[P_Marlowe]

BBO,

Not playing 2/1

 

Partner opened 1 Spade and I held:

 

S T93

H AKJ5

C QJ6

D 874

 

Partner thinks, in this instance, I should have bid that 4 card heart

suit even though that should always show 5+ cards. I bid the stronger

minor, clubs, as a forcing bid. My point was I have a lot of options

and would like to hear his next bid at the 2 level.

 

Any comments?

Jerry D

Hi,

 

bidding a 3 card minor is ok, as long as a later 3S is only inv, you dont want to

force to game with your hand. But usually this seq. is gf. Doing away with the gf

in this seq. would make slam bidding harder.

The alternative is make a limit raise, possible as long as a direct limit raise

does not promise 4 card support.

Another option is to downgrade the hand due to its 4333 shape, and bid 1NT showing

6-10. Obviously you may not be able to show the primary spade fit, which may or may

not be bad.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[DavidKok]

Are you playing 5-card major openings? If so, most partnerships around here have a conventional bid to show balanced hands with invitational values and support (in my system 2NT). Without any such bid I would venture 3♠ if that is invitational, or 2♣ if the previous is pre-emptive.

[Tramticket]

I bid the stronger minor, clubs, as a forcing bid.

 

It would be easier to see that clubs is your stronger minor if you laid the hand out in the conventional way: spades at the top, then hearts, then diamonds and clubs at the bottom.

 

As others have said, your response will depend on your system. This hand seems perfect for a natural 2NT response, but most of us will prefer to use 2NT as an artificial bid (Jacoby or similar). In the absence of 2NT, a bid of 3C is reasonable. A response of 2D might be an attempt to avoid a diamond lead if you end in 3NT. 2H promises a 5-card suit and you are likely to finish in 4H on a 4-3 Moysian fit - which might be playable with yoyr strong heart suit, but is vulnerable to bad breaks or a forcing defence. The final option is to raise to 2 spades or 3 spades - more attractive if playing 5-card majors, but the hand is a little strong for 2S and a little weak for 3S (which should promise a four-card suit in many systems).

[ahydra]

Standard sequence for this is 2C then 3S, invitational. (2D then 3S would be technically incorrect, but entirely understandable given the quality of the diamonds compared to the clubs.) If playing 2/1 it's 1N then 3S.

 

This is the only hand pattern where a bid of 2x doesn't promise 4, as the 2H response guarantees a 5-card suit. It is entirely safe, as no matter how many clubs partner may bid, you can correct to spades.

 

ahydra

[AL78]

I go along with other replies and bid 2♣. If partner has a heart, he will bid them now, so no need to lie about a five card suit. If partner doesnt bid hearts, I invite game with 3♠.

 

Why did your partner say you should respond 2♥? Did he have a 6♠-4♥ shape and jump to 3♠ which put you in an inferior spade game? If so, then that is one of the awkward bidding decisions with a 6-4 opening hand, whether to rebid the 6 card suit or show the second suit. Sometimes you will do one when the other would have worked out best.