bidding question

[pdmunro]

Any suggestions on how to bid this deal?

We play 2NT opening = 20-21; so here, 2C then 2NT = 22-23.

http://keepcount.net/images/bid-01.png

[Cyberyeti]

For us 2♣-2♦-2N-3♠(variety of minor suited GF slam inv hands)-3N(forced)-4♣(single suited clubs) and via any of a number of routes onwards to 6♣/6N.

[Tramticket]

How do you show clubs in response to a 2NT bid in your methods?

 

I assume that 3♣ would be some form of Stayman? One option is to bid 4♣ showing a club suit and 100% forcing. But maybe you use 4♣ as Gerber or a transfer to hearts? If so, many pairs will bid 3♣ (initially Stayman) and then follow up with 4♣ (again 100% forcing) to show a club suit.

 

As an alternative, if using 4♣ to transfer to hearts, you could use 4♥ to transfer to clubs.

 

It needs to be a matter for partnership agreement, but you need a method to show clubs!

 

Edit: my post crossed with Cyberyeti - his method is another alternative that some pairs use.

[pdmunro]

>> For us 2♣-2♦-2N-3♠(variety of minor suited GF slam inv hands)-3N(forced)-4♣(single suited clubs) and via any of a number of routes onwards to 6♣/6N.

 

>> many pairs will bid 3♣ (initially Stayman) and then follow up with 4♣ (again 100% forcing) to show a club suit.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. Personally, if I was West, I would take partner for 7 top honours and just jump to 6♣ with her cards. My partner's mind is better organised than mine and she wants a route to slam.

[Cyberyeti]

>> For us 2♣-2♦-2N-3♠(variety of minor suited GF slam inv hands)-3N(forced)-4♣(single suited clubs) and via any of a number of routes onwards to 6♣/6N.

 

>> many pairs will bid 3♣ (initially Stayman) and then follow up with 4♣ (again 100% forcing) to show a club suit.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. Personally, if I was West, I would take partner for 7 top honours and just jump to 6♣ with her cards. My partner's mind is better organised than mine and she wants a route to slam.

 

There are 26 points available outside clubs, you at least want to check you aren't off 2 aces or the ♣AK

[pescetom]

For us 2♣-2♦-2N-3♠(variety of minor suited GF slam inv hands)-3N(forced)-4♣(single suited clubs)

 

You can play 3♠ either (like this) as a Puppet over which responder describes his minors or (more simply) as an Ask for opener to describe his minors (3NT=not interested, 4♣/4♦=4+cards).

We play the latter method as responder can already show a minor from within our 3♣ "Stayman".

[Cyberyeti]

You can play 3♠ either (like this) as a Puppet over which responder describes his minors or (more simply) as an Ask for opener to describe his minors (3NT=not interested, 4♣/4♦=4+cards).

We play the latter method as responder can already show a minor from within our 3♣ "Stayman".

 

Also depends if (we don't) you play this is your 3N raise with 2N-3N artificial.

[nudnikbp]

Without a partnership agreement, West could bid 5C over 2NT. East has enough to continue to 6C as the slam can't be any worse than a diamond finesse.

[ruleof15]

Here is the reason for top pairs to have a meaning for bids up to the 5 level. In this case a 3s rebid by responder would be minor suit Stayman, but a 4s bid would be a transfer to c and a 5c bid would be a transfer to d. Some may wonder why waste a bid. Tell me what else one might use the bids.

[wachusett]

Being a firm believer in the KISS system, why not bid 3 Clubs immediately over the 2 Club opener? Normally that would show at least 8 HCP and a good Club suit. But 'cmon, that eight card suit surely makes up for the deficit of 1 HCP from a proper positive response.

[bluenikki]

Any suggestions on how to bid this deal?

We play 2NT opening = 20-21; so here, 2C then 2NT = 22-23.

http://keepcount.net/images/bid-01.png

 

Play the jump to 5♣ over 2NT to demand pass with no top !c honor, 6♣ with 1, 7♣ with both and all aces, some other suit with both but a missing ace.

 

I am sure this is the right meaning for the double jump, but I would not risk it unless the partnership had talked about it very recently.

 

I am not so sure the present responding hand is quite strong enough, though.

[magassoc]

2♣2♦2N3♠4H6♣

[Cyberyeti]

2♣2♦2N3♠4H6♣

 

3♠ meaning what ? 4♥ meaning what ?

[fourdad]

Being a firm believer in the KISS system, why not bid 3 Clubs immediately over the 2 Club opener? Normally that would show at least 8 HCP and a good Club suit. But 'cmon, that eight card suit surely makes up for the deficit of 1 HCP from a proper positive response.

 

100% agree!! Complications are not always better. Could 3C mean something else?

[Tramticket]

100% agree!! Complications are not always better. Could 3C mean something else?

 

A 3C positive will not help when partner holds (say) a spade / diamond two-suiter. It is not unlikely that your partner will be singleton or void in clubs and your 3C positive does not deliver the support that partner is entitled to expect.

[bluenikki]

A 3C positive will not help when partner holds (say) a spade / diamond two-suiter. It is not unlikely that your partner will be singleton or void in clubs and your 3C positive does not deliver the support that partner is entitled to expect.

 

You seem to think that a positive response equals slam zone for every strain. That is a very hard way to play.

[dalelpage]

If playing minor suit transfers:

 

2♣ 2♦ (waiting) 2NT 3♠ (transfer to Clubs showing six or more clubs) 4♣ (accept the transfer), 4♦, splinter (although some may play this as natural), then 4NT, 5♦ (1430 showing 0 Key cards) 5♥ (Queen?), 5♠ (Queen) then either guess for 6♣ or 7♣ an argument can be made for 5NT to ask for kings.

 

I know some people do not play minor suit transfers over 2NT, but this hand is tailor-made for these transfers.

 

If you're not playing minor suit transfers:

 

On the 2NT bid, you know that partner has at least 22 points. You have 7 HCP and 10 total points with distribution, putting your pair at 32 points. With your HCP bringing your pair's total to 29 HCP, that means there are 11 outstanding. While it is possible that partner is missing two aces and a king, I would suggest bidding 4♣ Gerber. If you play 1430, partner's response of 4♦ (one or four aces) will tell you immediately that partner has all four as 12 points (three aces) is over the maximum that the opponents can have, and you can bid six or ask for kings. If partner bids 4♥ (0 or 3) or 4♠ (two without the queen), you can safely stop in 5♣ although with reckless disregard for propriety (and my partner's sanity), I'd probably still bid 6♣ and claim I misclicked or pulled the wrong card from my box when he goes merrily down 1 or 2. (Last part is a joke.)

[MimiIndy]

Bid 3spades fro transfer to clubs. Then use 1430 to check key cards.

[gszes]

messing with strong 2 sequences can cause huge problems so I would advise against any club bids until we know what the heck opener has. I am not a gerber fan and hands like this show why. Over 2n I think a 4c bid adequately shows this type of hand (7/8 clubs)and mild slam interest or better. If opener wishes to sign off in 4n responder should accept that. 4d by opener should be KRC (0314) followed by 4h (03) 4s (club Q? AND promising all keycards) 5h (yes and heart K AND unable to bid 7

unless opener has something more than 4 aces and the club K. 6c. Note the huge difference when switching opener's red suits, an easy 7c can be bid unless opener wishes to take the slight gamble on the heart K being singleton and led and bids 7n.

[bluenikki]

messing with strong 2 sequences can cause huge problems so I would advise against any club bids until we know what the heck opener has.

 

You have this exactly backward.

 

The weak hand's 7+ suit may well be the only strain that can make a high contract. the 2♣ opener is supposed to have aces and kings to add tricks even when misfitting responder's suit. Where responder may contribute nothing in a misfit.

 

If the weak hand must temporize for 3 rounds, his suit will sound like.a cue bid

[smerriman]

I have to agree with bluenikki here, at least because I play 2♦ as waiting and cheaper minor as a second negative. If partner does have an unbalanced hand, I'm completely stuck for a second (or any further) bid.

 

If you play an immediate 2♥ as a bust, then starting with 2♦ seems fine.

[Tramticket]

You seem to think that a positive response equals slam zone for every strain. That is a very hard way to play.

 

À positive will usually deliver slam values, but this is not the point.

 

Partner has a very big, but it is still an undefined hand. He may be balanced, as here, when it might be appropriate for you to take control. But he will often be unbalanced with single-suiter or two-suiter and taking up so much bidding space will only get in the way of a constructive auction.

[Tramticket]

I have to agree with bluenikki here, at least because I play 2♦ as waiting and cheaper minor as a second negative. If partner does have an unbalanced hand, I'm completely stuck for a second (or any further) bid.

 

If you play an immediate 2♥ as a bust, then starting with 2♦ seems fine.

 

This is a second example in this thread of using a bid artificially without any agreement how you deal with the hand that wants to bid the suit naturally. The opening post uses 3C as Stayman and 4C as Gerber, so doesn't have a way of showing clubs. Using 3C as a second negative has a similar problem! Maybe you need to define 3C as "clubs or second negative"; or use the unfashionable 2NT as the second negative; or keep 3C as a second negative and use 2NT to show clubs; or get rid of the notion of a second negative completely!

 

But I don't think that a positive 3C is helpful (and would be impossible if you had 8 clubs and a three-count).

[nekthen]

Making use of 3♠ 4♣ and 4♦ is surely the say to go. Keeping it simple, let 3♠ be both minors and 4♣ and 4♦ be natural and forcing setting the trump suit. You can even make them minorwood.

[smerriman]

This is a second example in this thread of using a bid artificially without any agreement how you deal with the hand that wants to bid the suit naturally.

How so? The way you bid it naturally is to respond 3♣, as I wrote. Having a slightly wider range of 3♣ positives is the agreed way to play it.

 

BWS uses cheaper minor without all of the addons you suggested.