slothy Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 So maybe I find 5-card majors easier than 4-card majors for the same reason as why I found German easier to learn than English. Dread to think how excellent your German must be then Helen :) PSHavent posted in a while(probaly made you all very happy) , Marc, my friend, speaking for myself, and only 100% of the other people who frequent this forum yes it did :) :) :) PPS .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spwdo Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 Havent posted in a while(probaly made you all very happy) , Marc, my friend, speaking for myself, and only 100% of the other people who frequent this forum yes it did :) :) :) Hi, after such an encouragement & friendly reply it will be most difficult to fight the urge of posting on a regular basis Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 don't listen to him, marc... keep posting.. besides, he was kidding anyway... even if he wasn't, who cares? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 Im sure Marc doesn’t take all this seriously, coming from a guy who wears cream pants… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 We need you marc...come back to us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothy Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Marc, my friend, speaking for myself, and only 100% of the other people who frequent this forum sorry Marc i misjudged you and the number of people you must have begged to come to rally to your support.... perhaps we could lower it to circa 84%? (i dont count Jimmy.. he always champions the underdog) :) Alessio Seriously, nice to see you back (geez hard to type with your fingers crossed :lol: ). I just hope you dont have to go back to the asylum too often for check-ups Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoeless Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Wow missed some fun I see! Fred - I think you missed something subtle here - let me tell you about a good old farm boy from Floral Saskatchewan who played a little hockey - name's Gordie. He used to go to the Chicago arena and get booed long and loud as soon as his skates hit the ice - when asked how he felt about it he said "Great isn't it? So much recognition" Wonder if this Bob guy might come to the lecture theatre on BBO and have a chat with Fred about the theme of this thread - I'd take a day off work to be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spwdo Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Marc, my friend, speaking for myself, and only 100% of the other people who frequent this forum sorry Marc i misjudged you and the number of people you must have begged to come to rally to your support.... perhaps we could lower it to circa 84%? (i dont count Jimmy.. he always champions the underdog) :) Alessio Seriously, nice to see you back (geez hard to type with your fingers crossed :lol: ). I just hope you dont have to go back to the asylum too often for check-ups Alex, thx man.To those who wonderd if i take tha sloth`s posts seriuos, well i don`t.How can anyone?? p.s Alex, i was able to buy a second handed parachute, it only been used once and it never even opend.As my friend i`m giving it for free to you(i was planning on using it but i do not like the colours that much so its all yours) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 what colors do you not like but alex does? mauve? peach? CREAM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spwdo Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 what colors do you not like but alex does? mauve? peach? CREAM? all of the above and a touch of red :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothy Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 u r obviously a sissy then :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 hahahah... not so obvious, i think he hides it well.. sometimes he logs on as 'butch'.. or 'chuck' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigour6 Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Wow. Then there was a day when I had a discussion on-line about bidding system with Fred Gitelman. Goosebumps. I love this site. OK, here's my view, which is that of a total non-expert. Many people start playing kitchen bridge and don't really have any "system" to speak of. As a result, they get a lot of experience playing in atrocious contracts. And their playing develops to compensate. When they begin to learn a system, they start actually playing in somewhere near the appropriate contract a lot more often. There is a sudden jump in their success. This may be where the seed is planted. If learning a system made me get better, then super-learning a super-system will make me get much better. The reasons the math for that doesn't work have been expounded.The more complicated the system is, the easier it is to forget, confuse, be derailed by interference, get exhausted, get focused on the wrong thing. If you combine that with the fact that:- Most systems will take you to the same place almost all of the time anyway. The hands which fall in the seams are quite few.- Of the ones where they differ, a percentage of them they'll be better and a percentage will be worse.- Then there's the factor of how your system is understood by or interacts with the opponents and their system and play.- All the other errors and the fog of war I can certainly see where Fred can say that superior players are indeed that, superior PLAYers not superior bidders. Again, I have no idea what the world looks like when the people playing are actually very good bridge players. No doubt at elite levels it's a whole different world. For myself and my partner, we started with a very simple system. I mean VERY simple. We had to keep alerting because we were playing such a simple system. All strong twos for example. And we played it and played it until we felt we had it cold. And as we were playing hands, we'd notice times when the "system" failed us. What's the answer to that problem? And after some discussion we'd decide to make an addition or modification to the system. So with each modification we would say:- our system has this problem- let's see what we could change to solve that problem- then let's consider if we amde that change how it would change other things. The result we keep hoping for is more hands in which we can make a rebid that "fits" as opposed to one we have "wedged in", causing our partner fewer rebid problems. We aren't done of course, as has been said it maintains our interest, and again each time we add something it's with the idea that we are trying to address this problem or that problem. You have to remember that a "system" is just a construct trying to place a randomly generated hand into a category that lets you arrive at the appropriate contract. A "perfect" system cannot exist. It is like theorizing a perfect language. Since the goal is communication the test is really whether you and your partner 1) understand each other and 2) can communicate complex thoughts clearly. I know there's no body language in bridge, but I swear there's intuition. And at the end of the day, the system is a way of describing this dialogue with your partner. It is an Australian accent more easy to understand than an American? Well, it is to another Australian. I hope you take my point. The partnership is what matters. The very few times we have done what amounts in our world as "well", it was because our opponents seemed destined to impale themselves on our spears. We just sat back and watched them misbid, misdefend, and fired an occasional penalty double in to seal the deal. As I say, I don't have anything of value to add to a discussion by experts (I probably shouldn't bury the lead like that) but I do think this:Over 90% of the people I play with and against and observe playing on BBO are getting far smaller marginal returns working on a bidding system than they would gain working on their defense. Just my opinion. I am probably wrong. Just ask my partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Over 90% of the people I play with and against and observe playing on BBO are getting far smaller marginal returns working on a bidding system than they would gain working on their defense. Amen, 100 % true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PriorKnowledge Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 I have heard from many top experts that anyone with lesser talent than them, "sucks." Even when describing other top experts. I have heard this even from ones I respect. This saddens me. If a player has limited bridge ability, but a great memory, it seems to me that loading up on conventions will better their game more than trying to stretch their meager bridge judgement. Maybe for some young talented players, their bridge skills will improve better if they concentrate on bridge judgement and defense. But that is not necessarily the correct prescription for all players. If you play an obscure convention and it comes up, you've just earned a top. I saw a pair stay out of slam with a balanced 18 opposite a 1S opening bid even tho they had a 5-3 major suit fit. Because trumps broke badly, even 5S was hopeless. They earned a top for not investigating slam. Different strokes for different folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 The thing is, EVERYONE can become an expert card player. It is not beyond anyone. Card play is basically like a science, you just have to study it and work at it. Stealing tricks through inspired play and good table feel cannot be taught, but if you are a good technician and make the routine deceptive plays you're way ahead of the game and can win in most fields. If you study conventions and the latest expert bidding trends, this won't help you 1/10th as much. At the very high levels having detailed agreements and being on the same wavelength with partner is important. In a regional pair game I would be willing to bet 2 experts could win with no agreements other than stayman and negative Xs. I think the point Fred and others are trying to make is getting your cardplay down will improve your results much more than conventions. Even if you are a very sound card player and weak bidder, improving your judgement (by PLAYING and reading hands, challenge the champs etc) is the most important step. If you have good judgement as well, then getting a partner and having detailed and numerous agreements is the next step. It doesn't even matter if these agreements are inferior or superior, as long as they exist. If you do this you can win a national and still haven't even touched upon modern superscientific conventions. Sure if a convention comes up it can be great but there isnt much difference between namyats with 3N=4minor pre or 3N=gambling and 4m=nat. On a different note, Bob had a hand recently with 3433 and a Jxx suit. Over his 1N opener pard transferred to hearts and bid 3N. Bob said he should have passed but thought it was too big of a view. He is going to do a simulation to see if it's right to pass. Then he added that people should be thinking about THIS kind of stuff instead of things like conventions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 On a different note, Bob had a hand recently with 3433 and a Jxx suit. Over his 1N opener pard transferred to hearts and bid 3N. Bob said he should have passed but thought it was too big of a view. He is going to do a simulation to see if it's right to pass. Then he added that people should be thinking about THIS kind of stuff instead of things like conventions. That's a situation where, IMO, standard methods leave you to guess. If it is worth doing a sim, surely it is much more worth trying to solve the problem scientifically like in Keri? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 You give things up by playing keri. Every convention has a loss. That is exactly my point, some methods are better on certain deals than others, it doesn't really matter which ones you play (within reason). You just focus on using good judgement and then taking tricks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 On a different note, Bob had a hand recently with 3433 and a Jxx suit. Over his 1N opener pard transferred to hearts and bid 3N. Bob said he should have passed but thought it was too big of a view. He is going to do a simulation to see if it's right to pass. Then he added that people should be thinking about THIS kind of stuff instead of things like conventions. That's a situation where, IMO, standard methods leave you to guess. If it is worth doing a sim, surely it is much more worth trying to solve the problem scientifically like in Keri? The Debate Rages on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 LOL...I joined in late...and I have no life I just noticed 41 posts today?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!! OK...I'm getting off now in that case... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumpace Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 If a player has limited bridge ability, but a great memory, it seems to me that loading up on conventions will better their game more than trying to stretch their meager bridge judgement. As Michael Caine would put it: It's not the size mate. It's how you use it. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothy Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 As Michael Caine would put it: It's not the size mate. It's how you use it. if i got 20 bucks for each ex-girlfriend who told me that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 if i got 20 bucks for each ex-girlfriend who told me that.... hence the term "EX-girlfriend" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double ! Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Ouch!That was cold! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spwdo Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 if i got 20 bucks for each ex-girlfriend who told me that.... hence the term "EX-girlfriend" nice one pal. p.s Alex in these expensive times you wont get far with 40 bucks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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