Responder bidding after 2C opening

[andych]

After below

 

2♣ 2♦ (waitng)

2♥ 2♠ (?)

 

Do you play the 2♠ as showing 4+ cards or 5 cards? If it shows 5 cards, the responder would very often have not much choice but to bid 2NT?

 

2♣ 2♦ (waiting)

3♣ 3♥/3♠ (?)

 

Should the 3♥/3♠ show 4+ cards only?

 

2♣ 2♦ (waiting)

2♠ 3♣/3♦/3♥ (?)

 

Should the 3♣/3♦/3♥ show 5 cards or 4+ cards?

[PriorKnowledge]

I play Kokish, so the 2S is forced!

 

Kokish outline:

After 2C 2D

2N = 22-23, balanced (some play this 22-24)

3H/3S = forcing, setting suit

3N = gambling, solid minor, with 8.5 to 9 tricks, like Ax Q10x x AKQxxxx

 

After 2C 2D 2H is relay to 2S, then:

2N = 24+(25+), balanced, game forcing and have all our 2N tools available

3C/3D/3S = 2-suited with hearts

3H = hearts, but responder can pass with complete bust

3N = gambling, solid minor, with 9.5 to 10 tricks like Ax Kx Ax AKQxxxx

[glen1]

After below

 

2♣     2♦ (waitng)

2♥     2♠ (?)

 

Do you play the 2♠ as showing 4+ cards or 5 cards?  If it shows 5 cards, the responder would very often have not much choice but to bid 2NT?

As noted in the other reply to your questions, many play Kokish 2♥ here (or as Kokish/Kraft call it "Birthright").

 

If not playing Kokish, 2♠ would show 5 and responder would then bid 2NT if no ♥ fit and no five card suit (♠s,♣s,♦s) to show.

 

2♣     2♦ (waiting)

3♣     3♥/3♠ (?)

 

Should the 3♥/3♠ show 4+ cards only?

No, 3♥/3♠ should be five or longer suits, and 3♦ should be semi-natural, allowing opener to introduce a four card major. See, for example, Modern American Bidding by Kokish & Kraft.

 

Also:

2♣ 2♦ (waiting)

3♥/3♠

should show 4 cards in bid major with longer ♦s. Then:

 

2♣ 2♦ (waiting)

3♦ 3♥/3♠

will be five or longer suits, since no need to look for 4-4 fit here.

 

2♣      2♦ (waiting)

2♠      3♣/3♦/3♥ (?)

 

Should the 3♣/3♦/3♥ show 5 cards or 4+ cards?

Yes 5 card or longer suits, and otherwise bid 2NT.

 

The 2NT rebids by responder sometimes seem to wrong side the contract, since responder usually has very few points. For this and other reasons, some play 2♣-2♥ as super negative (0-3 say), so that 2♦ waiting promises some points. Others play cheapest minor below 3NT (or 3NT if none) as the second negative after the 2♦ waiting response was made.

 

A better scheme after 2♦ waiting and 2♥/♠ by opener that nobody uses would be to have 2NT show a fit for opener's major (assuming Kokish/Birthright not used), 3♣ be a waiting bid, and 3 of opener's major to show ♣s. So:

 

2♣ 2♦ (waitng)

2♥ (?)

 

2♠ = five or longer ♠s

2NT = three or longer ♥s (look at all the room to explore for slam)

3♣ = waiting, can be very weak

3♦ = five or longer ♦s

3♥ = five or longer ♣s

 

2♣ 2♦ (waitng)

2♠ (?)

 

2NT = three or longer ♠s (look at all the room to explore for slam)

3♣ = waiting, can be very weak

3♦ = five or longer ♦s

3♥ = five or longer ♥s

3♠ = five or longer ♣s

 

Since you may very well be the first partnership to use this in the world, you would be free to name it anything you want, like "WTF" or "Daft".

[Guest Jlall]

agree with glen.

 

2C-2D

2H anything shows 5 card suit, so 2N is sort of default. It may wrongside sometimes but it allows opener room to bid a second suit and also adds clarity to all other bids.

 

the auction

 

2C-2D

3C-?

 

Is much trickier. I like 3D=punt. This could be odd for some as 4432 will be bidding 3D now. This adds clarity to 3M tho (5+) and allows you to find both 5-3 fits and 4-4.

 

The trickiest is

 

2C-2D

3D-?

 

makes me wish I was playing strong club LOL. This auction is really hopeless. Rightly or wrongly I usually play 3M=5+ and 3N is basically default. This way you miss 4-4 major fits, wrongside the contract, and get to 3N off a whole suit, JOY. lol, but seriously I have never seen glens suggestion of 2C-2D-3M showing 4M and long diamonds but that is a really good treatment. It solves this problem and you don't lose a ton.

[Winstonm]

This problem has to start with a definition of what the 2C bid looks like. In the system I use, 2C is 1 of 3 hand types: NT, single-suited or a 2-suiter. Opener can define his hand after a response by bidding: A) nt, :) his suit, C) Jump to the 4 level with 2-suiters, a la Roman Jumps. D) Jump in his suit with a self-sufficient suit.

 

Responder's first obligation is to show any decent support, even 2 small, as the opening 2C bid is usually made on a powerful 5-card or longer suit if 1-suited.

 

A suit bid would deny support, and a NT bid based on shape and cards outside partner's suit.

 

Granted, this method has problems with: AKxxx, x, AKQx, AQJ when it starts: 2C-2D-2S-3S. But on the whole, it solves more problems that it creates.

 

Also, we use control-showing responses so we have some idea immediately if the the hand is in slam, game, or partscore range.

[glen1]

...have never seen glens suggestion of 2C-2D-3M showing 4M and long diamonds but that is a really good treatment. It solves this problem and you don't lose a ton.

I was trying to remember where I first saw it, and I think it might have been Soloway-Goldman in the 90s. I certainly did not come up with it.

[han]

I play this too, but I also don't remember where I picked it up. I think that I've seen it in Kokish's writing (not to say that it is his), but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Antoine Fourrière]

Rosenkranz's 1985 The Bidder's Game features such a treatment. A 3♦ rebid denies a four-card major, a 3♥ rebid shows five diamonds and four hearts, a 3♠ rebid shows five diamonds, four spades and three hearts and a 3N rebid shows five diamonds, four spades and fewer than three hearts. (4♣, 4♦ and 4♥ cater to the 5440s with five diamonds.)

 

4♣ is natural after 2♣ 2♦ 3♥ but artificial with interest in a heart slam after 2♣ 2♦ 3♠. (Rosenkranz remains silent about 2♣ 2♦ 3N.)

[helene_t]

We play 2NT showing 5+ spades and 2♠=relay. Why not, notrump shows spades in so many other situations so this is easy to remember.