Who to blame (5)

[HeartA]

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=s9xhxdkqxxckqxxxx&s=skxhakqjxxxxdjxcj]133|200|Scoring: IMP

West dealt and opened 2S and bidding went:

W -- N -- E -- S

(2S)-3C-(P)-3S

(P)-4C-(P)-4H

(P)-5C-(P)-5H

All Passed[/hv]

 

1) Who was more responsible for the overbid?

2) Is 3H directly over 3C by South forcing or not?

[scoob]

I think I would be more inclined to bid 4♥ directly unless I knew for certain that 3♥ was forcing (which I don't). To me the cue bid belies the length of your ♥ suit and tends to indicate ♣ support.

[Guest Jlall]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm ok well...

 

3H would be forcing for sure. It would not be possible to bid constructively if new suits at the 3 level after partner has shown values are not forcing. Thus:

 

3S asks for a stopper but would tend to indicate at least a doubleton club (the only possible shape where you would not have a doubleton club or more is 4441 with no spade stopper in which case im not convinced 3S is the right bid but...).

 

4H in that context is a cuebid for clubs hence norths 5C bid.

 

As for the 3C overcall, it is certainly light. If north was 1-2-4-6 I might buy it, but with this shape I don't like it.

 

Overall the blame is to south for his convoluted sequence which did not show anything resembling what he had.

[Fluffy]

to me 3♣ is unaceptable bid, 150% blame for it.

[Antoine Fourrière]

South is the responsible for the actual mix-up (yes, 3♥ is forcing), but he would have had to bid 6♥ if East had bid 4♠, and that would have been North's fault.

[hotShot]

After a preempt one should bid only with a solid opening. So 3♣ is not a good bid.

South 3♠ bid is not a good bid either, because it does not describe his hand. South needs to play ♥ and only Aces are helpfull form north. The only way to make north realize that (without lots of aces on north hand) 4♥ is the place to be, is to bid 4♥ at once.

 

So i would say 60% north 40% south.

[Free]

How many times do you rebid your suit with a 6 card when you overcalled at 3-level these days?? :rolleyes: Guess who I blame...

[helene_t]

The singleton hearts is another reason for not overcalling with the North hand. Partner is going to bid hearts and then this auction is predictable, even if South had been a lot weaker than he happened to be.

 

North is aceless, he has two spade loosers and he has no rebid over 3♥. (Oops the latter is not true of course, he could rebid 3♠).

Edited May 27, 2005 by helene_t

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1st, for me 3H would not be forcing, it would be constructive,

but nonforcing. This means in my book South cannot bid

3H, he must bid 4H, and that for me 3S is an overbid.

 

This is a matter of partnership aggreement.

 

2nd, if you take it, that 4H is strong and natural, I would

just pass with the North hand, sure you only have a

singleton, but then 5 clubs is one level higher.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[the hog]

3C is horrible. North is totally to blame.

[joker_gib]

3C is horrible. North is totally to blame.

Agree ! :rolleyes:

 

Alain

[Blofeld]

I don't much like North's 3♣ bid, but having made that call I don't see how he can bid differently. After 3♠, South's 4♥ has to be a cue bid for clubs, so the 4♣ bid is denying a spade control, and 5♣ a retreat into the agreed suit without slam ambitions. South should just have bid 3♥ at his first turn (assuming this is forcing; 4♥ if not).

 

So I can't call North blameless (as the overcall is rather exceedingly light - I agree with Antoine about possible continuations if East had bid 4♠), but I dislike South's actual bidding more.

[mr1303]

If we're all in agreement that the North hand is NOT worth an overcall, then there's not a great deal of point in playing new suits not forcing. The difficulty in playing them not forcing is shown in attempting to bid this hand, since opps have already taken your space, you need all the rest of it that you can get.

 

South is too strong to bid 4H at his first turn.

Opposite something as small as

 

xx

xx

AKxx

AKxxx

 

6H is absolutely laydown. And there are plenty more minimum 3C overcalls which make 6H as well, a lot of which are weaker than the hand I gave.

 

Hence North for making rubbish overcalls and South for not playing new suits forcing after a 3 level overcall

[pclayton]

I don't think 3♣ is criminal. It might lead to a nice 3N when pard has an acey 12 count. But it is a definite overbid.

 

3♥ like the others have said is 100% forcing. North is boxed over 3♥ and retreats to 4♣. South devalues the K♠ in light of the misfit and retreats to 4♥.

[whereagles]

3C is fine...

 

After (2S) 3C (pass) south could follow 3 plans:

 

1. Bid 3H + 4H if he judges his hand to be slam invitational.

2. Bid a straight 4H if not.

3. Bid 3NT.

 

I would choose 3, but that's a matter of style.

 

The 3S cue could muddy the issue and that's exactly what happened. North took 4H for a cue with club fit and.. GAME OVER.

[HeartA]

I was South. I was disappointed when I saw dummy. My pd, used to be pro (we played 30 boards in the previous night and that's it), said that it was common sense that 3H is forcing. Since (1S)-2C-(P)-2H wouldn't be forcing, 3H in that sequence being forcing is not that clear to be without discussion. I tried to show a hand that was stronger than direct 4H.

[Walddk]

They can get 100% each (I'm generous). North for making a serious overbid, South for trying everything he can to confuse partner.

 

Why all those (unassuming) cue bids when you have a perfectly normal bid available? And if anyone wants to play 3♥ as non forcing on this auction, then good luck to them!

 

Roland

[Fluffy]

Since (1S)-2C-(P)-2H wouldn't be forcing

Its forcing to me, there is the fact that 1x-2y without jump promises 6 card suit and opening values to me in my partnership, do manypeople play these non forcing?

[mike777]

Since (1S)-2C-(P)-2H wouldn't be forcing

Its forcing to me, there is the fact that 1x-2y without jump promises 6 card suit and opening values to me in my partnership, do manypeople play these non forcing?

BWS 2001 only 23% of experts played 2h forcing, 16% of readers.

[flytoox]

I was South. I was disappointed when I saw dummy. My pd, used to be pro (we played 30 boards in the previous night and that's it), said that it was common sense that 3H is forcing. Since (1S)-2C-(P)-2H wouldn't be forcing, 3H in that sequence being forcing is not that clear to be without discussion. I tried to show a hand that was stronger than direct 4H.

I think 2 over 2 is not forcing, but 3 over 3 should be forcing. At 3 level, you just dont have enough room for cuebid then show your suit.

 

With your hand, I think 4H is ok. Against preempt, you should take a practical approach. Pd must have a very good hand for slam. He can bid on if he really has. 4H is not bar bid, just saying you want to play it no matter what pd has.

[helene_t]

In Standard American, "nothing" is forcing. In SEF, a new suit at the 2-level is not but at the 1- and 3-level it is. This treatment is quite popular in the Netherlands.

 

But of course, after an overcall of a preempt, a new suit is forcing.

[han]

If the opponents open with a preempt, partner overcalls, and I respond in a new suit, then that has to be forcing in any system. I think that anybody who has considered this issue seriously must come to the same conclusion.

 

100% to both players for me as well. I think that 3S is the worst call, 3C close second, 4C normal (what else?), and 5C understandable (can partner really have 5 hearts? If not then 4H is a cuebid and 5C the weakest possible call.)

[whereagles]

Whether or not a new suit is forcing after an overcall is a matter of agreement. Most people want to keep the cue as "good raise", which kinda forces a new suit to be the only forcing bid in misfit cases.

[HeartA]

Thanks for all the responses. I will take new suit at 3-level as forcing from now on.