What does this bidding sequence tell you about N/S hands

[mangurian]

playing 2/1 standard (SAYC). North opens 1H

p - 1H - p - 2C

p - 2H - p - 2S

p - 3C - p - 4NT (1430)

p - 5D - p - 5H

 

What does each stage of N/S bidding tell partner starting with 1H = 5+H 12+ points ?

[smerriman]

Your post is contradictory; 2/1 and SAYC are completely different systems.

 

There are also different 'standard' ways of playing 2/1; some play that 2H promises 6, and others don't.

 

And most people playing a proper 2/1 system would be playing a cheaper bid (4C or 4D depending) as RKCB in clubs, not 4NT.

 

If I were playing with a random 2/1 player online I would interpret them as:

 

2C: 4+ clubs, GF

2H: could be anything

2S: 5+ clubs, 4 spades

3C: 3+ clubs

4N: shouldn't be RKCB but assuming it is

5D: 0/3 keycards

5H: asks for queen of clubs

 

I assume this came up because the person bidding 4NT tried to sign off in 5H after realising they made a mistake and is now learning why people don't play 4NT as RKCB in clubs.

[DavidKok]

Asking for aces seems premature at this point of the bidding anyway, regardless of what bid you have reserved for it.

[smerriman]

Asking for aces seems premature at this point of the bidding anyway, regardless of what bid you have reserved for it.

You wouldn't ask for aces with AKQx Kx x AKJxxx? ;)

[DavidKok]

Sure, there are always exceptions (although even there there is no harm in bidding as normal first, it's not like the opps are going to use that information against you). Shoot me a message when you have that hand, I'll be waiting.

[nige1]

[hv=d=w&v=e&b=3&a=P1H(NAT 5+ !H)P2C(F/G 3+ !C)P2H(NAT Waiting)P2S(NAT 4+ !S, 5+ !C)P3C(NAT 3+ !C)P4N(RKC for !C)P5D(No keycards)P5H(ASK for !CQ)]150|150|

Mangurian's auction, with possible explanations.

 

IMO, responder holds something like

♠ A K Q x ♥ A x ♦ A ♣ A K x x x x [/hv]

[msjennifer]

Sir.

Asper the auction the agreed suit is CLUBS .Keeping this in mind the 5H bid, which is the next step after 5D asks for the CLUB QUEEN.The earlier bids are self explanatory. THANKS

[AL78]

Your post is contradictory; 2/1 and SAYC are completely different systems.

 

There are also different 'standard' ways of playing 2/1; some play that 2H promises 6, and others don't.

 

And most people playing a proper 2/1 system would be playing a cheaper bid (4C or 4D depending) as RKCB in clubs, not 4NT.

 

If I were playing with a random 2/1 player online I would interpret them as:

 

2C: 4+ clubs, GF

2H: could be anything

2S: 5+ clubs, 4 spades

3C: 3+ clubs

4N: shouldn't be RKCB but assuming it is

5D: 0/3 keycards

5H: asks for queen of clubs

 

I assume this came up because the person bidding 4NT tried to sign off in 5H after realising they made a mistake and is now learning why people don't play 4NT as RKCB in clubs.

 

I've had this problem in the past, when partner and I had a minor fit and I wanted to check for aces but using 4NT RCKB risked going past the five level with two key cards missing. Lets say you have a simple auction 1♥ - 2♣, 4♣ - ? and responder just needs to know about aces and kings, can you use 4♦ here as RCKB, or if diamonds had been agreed, use the cheapest non-naturally bid suit as RCKB?

[AL78]

[hv=d=w&v=e&b=3&a=P1H(NAT 5+ !H)P2C(F/G 3+ !C)P2H(NAT Waiting)P2S(NAT 4+ !S, 5+ !C)P3C(NAT 3+ !C)P4N(RKC for !C)P5D(No keycards)P5H(ASK for !CQ)]150|150|

Mangurian's auction, with possible explanations.

 

IMO, responder holds something like

♠ A K Q x ♥ A x ♦ A ♣ A K x x x x [/hv]

 

I think I'd rather blast 7NT after 3♣ than risk partner passing 5♥ thinking it was a signoff. There can't be a very high percentage of hands partner can have consistent with their bidding where it isn't better than 50-50. The worst I can think of is partner holding xxx in clubs, a bare minimum in HCP, and only having 12 tricks off the top, needing a 2-2 club break or a 3-3 heart break. Even then, there might be additional squeeze chances.

[pescetom]

I've had this problem in the past, when partner and I had a minor fit and I wanted to check for aces but using 4NT RCKB risked going past the five level with two key cards missing. Lets say you have a simple auction 1♥ - 2♣, 4♣ - ? and responder just needs to know about aces and kings, can you use 4♦ here as RCKB, or if diamonds had been agreed, use the cheapest non-naturally bid suit as RCKB?

 

It is fairly obvious to use 4♦ as RKCB(♣) and in the rare cases where this creates ambiguity it can be resolved with some simple meta-rules.

Normal Kickback would have you also use 4♥ as RKCB(♦), but this is of course much more insidious and requires significant partnership work to become reliable and worth the risk.

A very tame compromise might be to retain 4NT for all suits except ♣.

A better one IMO is to use ♦ as RCKB(♣) and and ♣ as RKCB(♦) and retain 4NT for the majors (with 1403 of course).

This gives you most of the gains of Kickback with few of the headaches.

A minor drawback is that using the preceding suit as the asking strain forces you to formulate more general rules about the use of NT and return to trumps within RKCB reply sequences, but your future agreements will be the better for that.

[AL78]

A better one IMO is to use ♦ as RCKB(♣) and and ♣ as RKCB(♦) and retain 4NT for the majors (with 1403 of course).

 

Why "of course"? Why is that superior to 0341?

[barmar]

Your post is contradictory; 2/1 and SAYC are completely different systems.

I was going to make a similar comment, but then I decided they may have meant "2/1 standard (SAYC)" to mean "playing 2/1 bids as in SAYC", not "playing the 2/1 Game Forcing system (SAYC)".

And most people playing a proper 2/1 system would be playing a cheaper bid (4C or 4D depending) as RKCB in clubs, not 4NT.

I think "most people" may be an overbid. While alternatives to 4NT may be common among experts, I'll bet the majority of 2/1 players use it.

 

Unless you define "proper 2/1 system" as one that uses Minorwood or Redwood, in which case it's just a tautology.

[blackshoe]

Agree with Barry regarding the intended meaning of "2/1" in the OP.

 

Playing SAYC, if memory serves 2♥ shows six hearts. 2♣ is not GF, it's invitational or better, 4+ clubs. However, responder's 2♠ rebid is a game forcing reverse, showing 5+ clubs, 4+ spades, and longer clubs than spades. 3♣ announces a club fit, which is likely only 3, but may be 4. 4NT says "I can see twelve tricks if we're not off two key cards, or one and the queen of clubs". Probably an overbid. 5♦ says "zero or three key cards". Likely zero. I don't see the point in asking for the queen of clubs, but that's what 5♥ is. Even if asker has four keycards, they're already forced to six clubs. I don't know, maybe asker was trying to sign off in 5♥.

[bluenikki]

Your post is contradictory; 2/1 and SAYC are completely different systems.

 

There are also different 'standard' ways of playing 2/1; some play that 2H promises 6, and others don't.

 

And most people playing a proper 2/1 system would be playing a cheaper bid (4C or 4D depending) as RKCB in clubs, not 4NT.

 

If I were playing with a random 2/1 player online I would interpret them as:

 

2C: 4+ clubs, GF

2H: could be anything

2S: 5+ clubs, 4 spades

3C: 3+ clubs

4N: shouldn't be RKCB but assuming it is

5D: 0/3 keycards

5H: asks for queen of clubs

 

I assume this came up because the person bidding 4NT tried to sign off in 5H after realising they made a mistake and is now learning why people don't play 4NT as RKCB in clubs.

 

Or, at any rate, why you can't play 1430 in clubs.

[bluenikki]

You wouldn't ask for aces with AKQx Kx x AKJxxx? ;)

 

Not if it got me to slam missing 2 aces.

 

If 4♣ would be slam interest, it is a better idea anyway. You are in no position to decide on 7 facing 2 aces. Maybe partner is.

[pescetom]

Why "of course"? Why is that superior to 0341?

 

Because with 0341 a 4NT RKCB of hearts becomes a real SNAFU.

 

With 4NT as the ask in hearts you already have the problem that a reply 2 keycards + Queen would take you above 5♥.

Now you are adding the problem that with 1 keycard (more likely than 0 or 3) you cannot ask for the Queen without forcing to slam.

[bluenikki]

Because with 0341 a 4NT RKCB of hearts becomes a real SNAFU.

 

With 4NT as the ask in hearts you already have the problem that a reply 2 keycards + Queen would take you above 5♥.

Now you are adding the problem that with 1 keycard (more likely than 0 or 3) you cannot ask for the Queen without forcing to slam.

 

It *should* be that asking without the queen is very rare. Because your chances of going down in 5 are then very real.

[bluenikki]

Agree with Barry regarding the intended meaning of "2/1" in the OP.

 

Playing SAYC, if memory serves 2♥ shows six hearts. 2♣ is not GF, it's invitational or better, 4+ clubs. However, responder's 2♠ rebid is a game forcing reverse, showing 5+ clubs, 4+ spades, and longer clubs than spades. 3♣ announces a club fit, which is likely only 3, but may be 4. 4NT says "I can see twelve tricks if we're not off two key cards, or one and the queen of clubs". Probably an overbid. 5♦ says "zero or three key cards". Likely zero. I don't see the point in asking for the queen of clubs, but that's what 5♥ is. Even if asker has four keycards, they're already forced to six clubs. I don't know, maybe asker was trying to sign off in 5♥.

 

The system definition document says that opener's simple rebid of the suit opened shows minimum-range strength. The document does not say what it shows in the suit.

 

(The reason for playing SAYC is that it allows no unstated agreements. You can add agreements if you want but you cannot *assume* any. No such thing as "just bridge.")

[dsLawsd]

Playing with a regular- check out Eddie Kantar's book

Roman Key Card Blackwood the final word,he talks about when to use what responses and asks.

 

For other play, try to put something on the card by agreement if possible. SAYC is not so suitable for complex auctions.

 

Try 2/1 or Bridge World Standard that can make a number of agreements understood (get the pamphlet) that can be looked up.

[akwoo]

I agree kickback is superior, but minorwood is less prone to mishaps.

 

Btw - I would not suggest playing kickback or minorwood as a beginner or intermediate - if your memory can tolerate additional conventions, there are more important (i.e. occurring more frequently for more gain) conventions to try.

[pescetom]

It *should* be that asking without the queen is very rare. Because your chances of going down in 5 are then very real.

 

It is quite frequent to ask for the Queen with the intention of discovering this and if positive then side King information also (however you show it). That's why it is part of the convention in the first place. Obviously it is one kettle of fish to do so knowing you can stop in 5 if the answer is no and another to force to 6 whatever the answer.

[bluenikki]

It is quite frequent to ask for the Queen with the intention of discovering this and if positive then side King information also (however you show it). That's why it is part of the convention in the first place. Obviously it is one kettle of fish to do so knowing you can stop in 5 if the answer is no and another to force to 6 whatever the answer.

 

If the partnership is missing the trump queen, the chance of 2 trump losers is significant. And it is very rare for the rest of the hand to be so solid that the chance of a 3rd loser can be discounted. And if it is that solid, then what are you doing playing in a suit?

[miamijd]

Because with 0341 a 4NT RKCB of hearts becomes a real SNAFU.

 

With 4NT as the ask in hearts you already have the problem that a reply 2 keycards + Queen would take you above 5♥.

Now you are adding the problem that with 1 keycard (more likely than 0 or 3) you cannot ask for the Queen without forcing to slam.

 

That's why 4S, not 4NT, is the key card bid for H.

[smerriman]

If the partnership is missing the trump queen, the chance of 2 trump losers is significant. And it is very rare for the rest of the hand to be so solid that the chance of a 3rd loser can be discounted. And if it is that solid, then what are you doing playing in a suit?

That's the purpose of asking for the queen when missing one keycard; if you're also missing the queen, you stop short of slam. And why all of the comments above are about making sure the asking bid has enough room to stop at the 5 level in that situation.

 

If you're likely to go down at the 5 level when missing 1 keycard and the queen, you shouldn't be asking for aces in the first place.

[AL78]

Because with 0341 a 4NT RKCB of hearts becomes a real SNAFU.

 

With 4NT as the ask in hearts you already have the problem that a reply 2 keycards + Queen would take you above 5♥.

Now you are adding the problem that with 1 keycard (more likely than 0 or 3) you cannot ask for the Queen without forcing to slam.

 

I'm not going to lose sleep over a niggle with an extremely unlikely chance of showing up. Such a situation has never happened in the 22 years I have been playing bridge.