Preempted by Clubs?

[apollo1201]

Hi all, hope all is fine under confinment.

Not a lot of live game, but from a BBO teams (IMP) match.

Partner opens 3♥ in 2nd, vul vs. not, but opps compete in ♣.

[hv=pc=n&n=sa654haq75dk72c84&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=p3h4c4h5cpp]133|200[/hv]

What is your call now?

[LBengtsson]

PASS

[Cyberyeti]

Most of the time, you are -1 in 5♥, 5♣ is -1 but occasionally making, state of the match would matter. That it's posted here partner will have x, KJ109xxx, QJxx, x or similar.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I expect 4H making, given that p was 2nd red vs. green, and I have 3-4 hard tricks.

I would not be suprised by +1, so I am bidding 5H.

 

X is not really an option, Pass is out.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

Ps: The above given sample hand, would be sub min at best for a 3H opening in the given situation.

But I would agree, that it comes down to the question, what does a 3H opening bid in the given situation

looks like,

[Tramticket]

Difficult decision, but I think that I lead a trump.

[msjennifer]

Sir,

I cannot decide as the requirements for a 3H opening in 2ND Seat at the given vulnerability have not been defined .Our definition is not more than Five losers since we are preempting partner, who is a non passed hand, Since my hand is giving three quickest covers ((SA AND HAQ) the losing count is 5-3=2.So i am certainly going to bid 5H which should be an easy make.THANKS

[DavidKok]

This is a classic problem, where after an auction with lots of jumping it is not clear which side is sacrificing and which side is strong. A number of remarks:

 

1. As msjennifer mentioned above, partner pre-empted on the 3-level in second seat vulnerable against not. This is the absolute worst position for a barrage bid, so under normal circumstances I would expect around KQJTxxx with a side singleton or perhaps a king (although preferably not!). However, the AQxx of hearts in our own hand rules that out. The most realistic hand for partner now is King-Jack-eighth in hearts and nothing outside. The more points partner has outside his own suit, the less appealing a pre-emptive opening bid is.
   
2. In these 'live' auctions, it is a valuable strategy to try to avoid 'the last guess', which is exactly the position you are in right here. Do you have agreements what a double or 4♦ bid would mean over 4♣? I would venture a take-out double on 4♣, which at this vulnerability would create a forcing pass over 5♣. With the hand given above by Cyberyeti partner has an easy 5♦ bid on that sequence, obviating the guess. EDIT: in hindsight the risk that partner could pass is possibly too big, making double unattractive.
   
3. In light of the first point, a penalty double is extremely risky. With a suspected 12-card fit in hearts there rate to be no tricks in that suit on the defence, so 5♣ is likely to make. However, 5♥ is unlikely to go down more than 2 tricks (we probably have 8 hearts and the ace of spades, plus a possible trick in diamonds sitting over the strong defender). Ideally I would go back one round in the bidding, but in the current circumstances 5♥ is my best guess.
   

As a final note, if partner opened 3♥ on some hand with distributed values and not that much shape (and 5♣ can be set, in which case partner is likely to bring up that "the 5 level belongs to the opponents") make sure to discuss what to expect of preemptive bids depending on vulnerability and position. Personally I semi-regularly pass a 7-card major (or open on the 2-level) with a hand unsuitable for a pre-empt. This rarely costs - when one hand has length, so do others, and the bidding is not over after the first round.

[Cyberyeti]

Sir,

I cannot decide as the requirements for a 3H opening in 2ND Seat at the given vulnerability have not been defined .Our definition is not more than Five losers since we are preempting partner, who is a non passed hand, Since my hand is giving three quickest covers ((SA AND HAQ) the losing count is 5-3=2.So i am certainly going to bid 5H which should be an easy make.THANKS

 

I don't think you could criticise partner for holding something like xx, KJ109xxx, Axx, x, asking for a 5 loser hand is too much as most of those open 1 for a lot of the population. This is why I said 5♥ would be -1 most of the time.

[nudnikbp]

Pass. I expect partner can take nine or ten tricks in a heart contract. Five clubs will probably make or go down one.

[apollo1201]

Thanks all. I was S and had a 2740 hand so almost what Cyber guessed. Red vs green, it promises a decent suit (here KJT9xxx) and some side goodies. Otherwise I pass or open at the 2-level.

 

As the cards lay, 5H should be down 1 but was misdefended by our teammates at the other table, while my partner (who Xed 5C) almost handed over the 5C contract to them.

 

In all cases, as some of you said, it is a likely -1 for -1, sometimes making in either line, naturally or’with opponents help as was almost the case in both tables. So a not too expensive insurance to bid 5H. And sometimes, they’ll defend to 6C.

 

As a remark to David, X over 4C would be 100% penalties. When you preempt, you’ve told your story. If partner Xes, it means the opps (who can stretch to overcall high) didn’t land well.

[DavidKok]

I agree wholeheartedly with the principle that with a pre-empt opener is supposed to have told their story, but if you play 3♥ as "a solid suit and some side goodies" I think it is less clear that an immediate X is penalty - at the very least I would consider it optional. With a hand like xx, KJTxxxx, QJxx, - you are expected to contribute 0 tricks on the defence to 4♣. At IMP scoring my partner and I play that "we only double when down 2 is in sight", and if partner has 5 tricks in his hand on this sequence we can often also make 4♥. In fact, if most of those tricks are based on partner's club holding the opponents will simply run, and if they are based on some values in the other 3 suits then 4♥ looks reasonable (for +620 instead of +100 to +300). The vulnerability also plays a big role here - with the colours inverted I would again interpret X as 100% penalty. That being said, if opps had raised to 5♣, for example, I agree completely that opener cannot run.

Maybe the correct word for the double in my system would be 'consultative' - partner is expected to sit with about one trick on the defence, but may run with less.

[miamijd]

I think 5H is clear. First, partner made a red vs white preempt in second seat, so he needs a lot more than KJT seven times in H. He has to have side strength in spades or diamonds, more likely diamonds. Perhaps something like:

 

x KJTxxxx AJxx x

 

in which case you are likely making 6H.

 

Second, you can't be at all certain of beating 5C. You may well have no H tricks. If one opponent has a stiff in partner's pointy suit, 5C will roll home.

 

So in IMPs, 5H is easy. The worst thing that can happen is you lose a few IMPs when 5C and 5H are both -1. That's cheap insurance against a double game swing.

 

Even in MP, I think 5H wins a lot more than it loses.

 

And FYI, if partner has something like KJT eighth in hearts and out, you better have a conversation about your preempts :) That is NOT a second-seat red vs white 3H bid (at equal vul, it's OK).

[DavidKok]

And FYI, if partner has something like KJT eighth in hearts and out, you better have a conversation about your preempts :) That is NOT a second-seat red vs white 3H bid (at equal vul, it's OK).

 

Then what is the proper bid with that hand, position and vulnerability?

[ibm386]

I prefer 5♥ and i hope from my partner a hand :

2-3♠ with A,J or 2-3♦ with K,J,1♣

and 7♥with K, so 7-8 PO.

Dbl not good because I don't have a defensive hand and

i'm in vulnerable versus non-vulnerable.

i prefer offensive.

[P_Marlowe]

Then what is the proper bid with that hand, position and vulnerability?

2H?

 

One needs to discuss preempt style, but facing a random guy, one should be happy to see the 8 carder

opened at the 3 level.

Without prior discussion, a 2H opening is a bit extermen, and not something that can be expected.

[ashishgupt]

Depends on partnership agreement....

 

As we are vulnerable partners should have a strong prompt so they are holding at least an A and a K...we have 11 hearts between us and partner has short suits allowing for roughing value. With the 2 clubs, partner likely has one...at 5C, they are getting 400 points..I am going to 5H, which may go down 1, Doubled...-200 is better than -400.

[ashishgupt]

Depends on partnership agreement....

 

As we are vulnerable partners should have a strong prompt so they are holding at least an A and a K...we have 11 hearts between us and partner has short suits allowing for roughing value. With the 2 clubs, partner likely has one...at 5C, they are getting 400 points..I am going to 5H, which may go down 1, Doubled...-200 is better than -400.

[msjennifer]

I don't think you could criticise partner for holding something like xx, KJ109xxx, Axx, x, asking for a 5 loser hand is too much as most of those open 1 for a lot of the population. This is why I said 5♥ would be -1 most of the time.

Sir,

I humbly wish to point out fhat the requirements which we have set are worthy enough for consideration for others too.We open the hand mentioned by you TWO AND not THREE hearts .GOOD LUCK to all those who open 3H on what WE consider a rubbish bid with the given vulnerability AND THAT TOO IN SECOND SEAT.THANKS.

[Cyberyeti]

Sire,

I humbly wish to point out fhat the requirements which we have set are worthy enough for consideration for others too.We open the hand mentioned by you TWO AND not THREE hearts .GOOD LUCK to all those who open 3H on what WE consider a rubbish bid with the given vulnerability AND THAT TOO IN SECOND SEAT.THANKS.

 

What I'm saying is that if you use those rules there is almost no such thing as a 3♥ opener for you at this seat and vul. KQJ10xxx and an ace or a KQ is a 1 opener for us. KJ109 to 7 and an ace is 6.5 tricks and well withing the tolerance for 3♥ for us.

[miamijd]

2H?

 

One needs to discuss preempt style, but facing a random guy, one should be happy to see the 8 carder

opened at the 3 level.

Without prior discussion, a 2H opening is a bit extermen, and not something that can be expected.

 

I would pass in 2d seat at red vs white. At any other vulnerability, or in 1st or 3d seats at any vul, I am bidding something.

[msjennifer]

What I'm saying is that if you use those rules there is almost no such thing as a 3♥ opener for you at this seat and vul. KQJ10xxx and an ace or a KQ is a 1 opener for us. KJ109 to 7 and an ace is 6.5 tricks and well withing the tolerance for 3♥ for us.

Sir,

You are absolutely RIGHT..As said, we do not like to preempt a non passed partner AT THIS VULNERABILITY in the second seat.Our restrictions are not applicable at all in the 3rd and 4th seat. It is somewhat comparable to our 4C and 4D openings which are a transfer to 4H and 4S resp. using the formula 0-1-2 as per the vulnerability.They enable the responder to use the next step bid to find out outside controls.Our 4H/S openings are as per the formula 1-2-3.This certainly deprives us of the pre emptive 4C./D bids ., But then there is hardly ever the opportunity for those bids.THANKS for your constructive comments

[sandybar]

Bidding 3H, red is a better hand than a broken 7 card suit. 5H.

[maartenxq]

Probably both are -1. I bid 5 ♥ however on the principle of the lesser risk. Opponents may apply this principle too, now I can dbl.

 

Maarten Baltussen

[akwoo]

At IMPs, I'm bidding. I agree the most likely result, maybe even with odds >50%, is -4 IMPs (with both contracts -1), but I'm happy to give away 4 IMPs for a chance at +14 - or at least +10 or +7.

 

At MPs, I'm passing.

[KingCovert]

This is an awkward discussion. It depends so much on your agreements. I find myself agreeing with almost everyone in this thread at times and disagreeing with almost everyone in this thread at times. As someone who often plays systems that doesn't have a weak two available, I'm used to pre-empting rather light at the three level, often with 6 cards. Second seat vulnerable is an exception to this, as it is for many players, and for good reason.

 

I think, given the AQXX in your hand, 2-7-4-0 shape on this auction seems extremely likely. I must admit, I have read the response stating that it is 2-7-4-0 shape, but, I did come to this conclusion prior to reading it. Furthermore, I think it would be poor bridge to add any value to the hand because it holds a club void (assuming it has one), what happens if it goes P-3H-P-4C? 4C is forcing, natural, and you'll never be able to ensure you get to the right contract, although, you may luckily fall into it.

 

So, I'd never provide extra values for holding a void alongside KJTXXXX when deciding if I want to preempt in 2nd seat while vulnerable. Especially not a club void, I'm not scared to compete over clubs later. So... a second seat preempt must still have some significant extras here. Some crappy diamond holding like JXXX, or even QXXX, is not really extras, you're just preempting a potential diamond fit.

 

If diamonds break 5-1, I'm probably not defeating 5♣. If they break 4-2, I'd be surprised not to defeat it. If we're not making 5♥, well, I probably won't agree with partners preempt. I'm expecting:

 

xx KJTxxxx QJxx - or

Kx KJTxxxx Qxxx -

 

If partner put down something like:

 

Kx KJT9xxx Jxxx - or

Qx KJT9xxx Jxxx - or

Kx KJT9xxx xxxx -

 

I'd be pretty upset.