Cascade Posted May 24, 2005 Report Share Posted May 24, 2005 [hv=d=e&v=n&s=sqxxxxhak10xxxxdcx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] RHO opens 3♠ Your bid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted May 25, 2005 Report Share Posted May 25, 2005 Pass for now. Partner is allowed to bid still. Someone has HCP in the minors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted May 25, 2005 Report Share Posted May 25, 2005 I pass. Isn't the rule "never preempt over a preempt"? My partner would expect an opening hand if I bid 4♥, so I pass. If partner reopens with a double, I'm happy to sit it. If anything else happens I can decide later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted May 25, 2005 Report Share Posted May 25, 2005 4H. I would not be happy to sit a X alhtough its doubtful partner is going to X. And I do have an opening hand :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted May 25, 2005 Report Share Posted May 25, 2005 I am afraid to pass as for sure partner will come up with 4NT = minors. 4♥ for me. Arend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted May 25, 2005 Report Share Posted May 25, 2005 I am afraid to pass as for sure partner will come up with 4NT = minors. 4♥ for me. Arend Ya, and we bid 5H. Great test of partnership trust or perhaps the last hand we ever play together as a partnership. If we bid 4H we may still end up in 5H after p bids over us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted May 25, 2005 Report Share Posted May 25, 2005 4H too - with a mild - WTP? if I catch pard with a mild heart fit, this hand will play nicely. Either LHO doesnt have a spade to lead or pard is void. even then, dummy will be ruffing over LHO. Pard might have some nightmare 6-6 in the minors, but he rates to have roughly 2 hearts on the auction - maybe more. if you pass, pard could balance with 4N - yuk! Better to mention the hearts now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted May 25, 2005 Report Share Posted May 25, 2005 I am afraid to pass as for sure partner will come up with 4NT = minors. 4♥ for me. Arend Ya, and we bid 5H. Great test of partnership trust or perhaps the last hand we ever play together as a partnership. If we bid 4H we may still end up in 5H after p bids over us. I think there are many hands that would bid 4NT if you pass, but pass if you bid 4♥. Partner will take 4♥ as a warning sign if he is 0=2=(6-5). Arend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted May 25, 2005 Report Share Posted May 25, 2005 4♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted May 25, 2005 Report Share Posted May 25, 2005 I've fallen into the trap of bidding on hands of type "1-suiter and long side suit of opps" twice. What happened on those occasions is pard was short in my suit and in opps suit and had some huge two-suiter in the other two. One time it was a 65, the other a 76(!!). So basically I think you should pass this one. Perhaps pard can pass as well. If he bids you're in trouble, but I don't think bidding a straight 4H is going to do less harm than bidding hearts later. Even if it's 1 level higher... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted May 25, 2005 Report Share Posted May 25, 2005 I pass. Maybe risking losing a NV game but avoiding severe penalty.LHO may still have a stack of hearts. With my spade length, pard is marked with shortness and will reopen if he's got anything useful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted May 25, 2005 Report Share Posted May 25, 2005 if you know your p will dbl, I'll pass. Otherwise I'll bid 4♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted May 25, 2005 Report Share Posted May 25, 2005 Pass is definitely wrong with this hand. Pd is marked with short spade. This implies you have heart fit. I would just bid 4H. I dont mind pd raise to 5 or 6. If you pass, pd is likely to bid some diamond. Even if he dbls, you dont know how many hearts you should bid. 4H, 5H,or 6H could all be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearmum Posted May 25, 2005 Report Share Posted May 25, 2005 in a word -- NO :) I do not prempt over a prempt IF I had a good opening bid WITHOUT the ♠ I (at favorable VUL) might venture a X :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted May 25, 2005 Report Share Posted May 25, 2005 Pass is definitely wrong with this hand. Pd is marked with short spade. This implies you have heart fit. That's what I thought when it happened to me.. wrong answer! Pard was short in both mine and opps suit. Which is quite logical when you think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcphee Posted May 25, 2005 Report Share Posted May 25, 2005 I can't see passing really and if the hand on lead has short S it will likely be the lead. Do you really have such wonderful defense against 3S? You may beat 3S when you are cold for 6H when partner has H support. Just consider if you passed and partner did double, does this really look like a defensive hand or would it produce tremendous offense opposite 3H? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted May 25, 2005 Report Share Posted May 25, 2005 4♥ to me, show ♥ now or never probably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted May 26, 2005 Report Share Posted May 26, 2005 (edited) Here are 40 simulated hands. Draw your own conclusions on the bidding sequences :-) ====================NOTE: EDITED AFTER JUSTIN's POST.NO 6322's anymore.18 hands out of 40 are 6331 Hand 1[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 2[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 3[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 4[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 6[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 6[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 7[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 8[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 9[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 10[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 11[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 12[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 13[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 14[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 15[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 16[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 17[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 18[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 19[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 20[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 21[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 22[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 23[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 24[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 25[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 26[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 27[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 28[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 29[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 30[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 31[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 32[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 33[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 34[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 35[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 36[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 37[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 38[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 39[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Hand 40[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s7hj972dq52cakqj5&w=sjhqdakt8743ct843&e=sakt942h8dj96c976&s=sq8653hakt6543dc2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Edited May 26, 2005 by Chamaco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted May 26, 2005 Report Share Posted May 26, 2005 The criteria for that simulation is way off. So many hands with 6 spades, including 6322. These are not 3S openers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted May 26, 2005 Report Share Posted May 26, 2005 The criteria for that simulation is way off. So many hands with 6 spades, including 6322. These are not 3S openers. Ok, Justin, I used for criteria: 1) west < 10 hcp2) suit quality: west has 6 spades and at most 1 loser or 7 spades and at most 2 slosers3) no side 4 bagger4) if 7 spades, no void =============== Please correct/improve the criteria, and I'll rerun and repost :-) In any case, I will include the hands with a 6 bagger, one-loser suit, and 6331 :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted May 26, 2005 Report Share Posted May 26, 2005 well obviously we fundamentally disagree here but since you asked my criteria would be: <10 HCP7 card suit with at most 2 loserscan only have 6 spades IF 6-4 with a suit of 1 loser.If 7 spades, no side 4 card suit (4S opener). Similar, but changes things ALOT since a majority of the hands in there are 6322. I just could not see opening 3S on AKTxxx xx xxx xx. If you change it to AKJTxx x xxx xxx I could not see opening 3S either. This is all style of course but I think mainstream 3S openers do not include those hands, and we should probably aim at mainstream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted May 26, 2005 Report Share Posted May 26, 2005 This is all style of course but I think mainstream 3S openers do not include those hands, and we should probably aim at mainstream. Ok, Justin. I think of course it's a matter of style, but I wonder whether opening 3M with a 64 is mainstream :-) Here in Italy I see a lot of people opening 3M with 6331 with, say AKJTxx, and much less people doing it with 64. So I'll rerun the simulation changing the constraint so that a 6 bagger preempt is 6331, but I won't include 64 hands :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted May 26, 2005 Report Share Posted May 26, 2005 If we are NV I'm happy to pass, I think I will have a hard time trying to do something with my 5 spades in a 4h contract. If pd has short spades he may reopen, in the worst scenario I can miss a non vulnerable game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted May 26, 2005 Report Share Posted May 26, 2005 AKJTxx x xxxx xxAKJTxx x xxx xxx The first one is clearly a better hand with more playing strength. I don't understand why you would open a hand with LESS playing strength 3S, and more 2S (I would open both 2S btw). But the point remains 6-4-2-1 is obviously a better hand than 6-3-3-1, if you are willing to open the second one 3S then why not the first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted May 26, 2005 Report Share Posted May 26, 2005 AKJTxx x xxxx xxAKJTxx x xxx xxx The first one is clearly a better hand with more playing strength. I don't understand why you would open a hand with LESS playing strength 3S, and more 2S (I would open both 2S btw). But the point remains 6-4-2-1 is obviously a better hand than 6-3-3-1, if you are willing to open the second one 3S then why not the first? I've been taught weak 2 and weak 3 show only ONE place to play. Actually, in "Preempts from A to Z" by Andersen-Zenkel, a side 4 bagger is mentioned as a serious flaw for opening a weak 2 or weak 3. But I am no expert, so I'll just mention the authors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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