Strong responder after precision 1C

[tysen2k]

I currently use a homegrown precision system with transfer positive responses. While I am happy with the system, one of the situations we seem to have problems with is when both responder and opener are stronger than a minimum, but we don't find a trump fit in the first two rounds of bidding. Something like:

 

1♣ - 1♥ (positive ♠)

2♦ - 3♣

...

 

Sometimes both hands have extras, but not enough to take unusual action by jumping, etc. We sometimes miss slams.

 

Does anyone have a good way of handling these hands? No 1st round relays or 1♦ positive please.

 

Rigal's "Precision in the 90's" has a system where responder bids the 1-step response (artificial) with 12+ HCP if opener bids a new suit. So:

 

1♣ - 1♥ (positive ♠)

2♦ - 2♥ (artificial - extras)

 

This is good both when you show the extras as well as when you deny them. The drawback is that now you have to bid 2N both with balanced hands as well as those hands that would have bid the one-step suit. So 2NT could be balanced or with hearts. Has anyone tried this method? Anyone have a better one?

[Guest Jlall]

Are you looking for a reverse structure?

 

May I suggest the one common in north america right now, rebid of major=5+ 1 round force. Cheaper of fourth suit and 2N= bad hand. Thus:

 

1C-1H(spades)

2D-2H(fourth suit)=bust without 5 spades. Opener has room to clarify his shape and it's easy to get out.

 

1C-1H(spades)

2H-2N=bust without 5 spades. etc.

 

1C-1H(spades)

2H-2S=5+ spades any strength then

2N=non force

3C=non force

3S=non force

[tysen2k]

Are you looking for a reverse structure?

 

May I suggest the one common in north america right now, rebid of major=5+ 1 round force. Cheaper of fourth suit and 2N= bad hand. Thus:

 

1C-1H(spades)

2D-2H(fourth suit)=bust without 5 spades. Opener has room to clarify his shape and it's easy to get out.

No, this is after a Precision 1♣, so only two suits have been shown at responder's rebid. Plus, the positive response shows 5 cards already.

[Guest Jlall]

oh nice im retarded i saw transfer responses but not precision club... lol

 

Could I suggest another common treatment then

 

1C p 1H=8-11 any shape. Thus all other bids (except 1D of course) are 12+ and its easier to sort out when you have extra values. I understand your problem and never figured out a good solution, usually someone has to overbid.

[glen1]

Common approach is for opener's suit rebid to be played as an ask with 3+ steps:

 

1) No fit, no extras.

2) No fit, extras (defined as extra HCP and/or good 2/1 points, A=2, K=1)

3) Fit, no extras

Above step 3 - fit, extras.

 

After 1) and 2) opener now has a chance to bid a second suit before responder continues to describe hand, which allows opener to catch up in showing shape.

 

Meckwell switch suits for opener's rebid, so that major suit can be shown/asking as the cheapest bids. For example if 1♣-1♠ showed ♥s, 2♣s would now show ♠s and ask for the step replies as above.

[pclayton]

Glen's 4-step response structure to 1C - positive - new suit is sensible. Weichsel - Sontag define the steps as Hxx as good support and 4 controls as a good hand I believe.

 

Another idea that I have played is responder's second suit is also a transfer to show a 2nd suit, support for opener or to rebid a long suit.If opener has a fit, he just accepts the transfer and the sequence continues as if there was an initial positive response and an acceptance.

 

This works OK, although you can't focus on the combined strength until a fit is found. Occasionally after the 5th call of the auction where there is no apparent fit, the auction gets sort of quantitative.

 

The secondary transfers seem to work well with a structure that allows responder to show a 5-5 or longer on the initial response. This way, you aren't taking three rounds to show your shape.We load these onto the 1S response which can also be a balanced hand of 8-10 or 14+.

[Syl20]

Sometimes both hands have extras, but not enough to take unusual action by jumping, etc.  We sometimes miss slams.

 

Does anyone have a good way of handling these hands?  No 1st round relays or 1♦ positive please.

I was also thinking at this point which is sometimes inconfortable.

 

For those playing Moscito, why not play 1♥/♠/NT, 2♦ to show (8)9-11 and 2♥/♠/NT, 3♦ to show 12+ ? The bidding is still symetric.. but one level higher :) .

 

A cheaper way could also consist in reserving the first step of the control asking bid to show 12+ and the other steps to show 8-11. :)

[hrothgar]

For those playing Moscito, why not play 1♥/♠/NT, 2♦ to show (8)9-11 and 2♥/♠/NT, 3♦ to show 12+ ? The bidding is still symetric.. but one level higher :) .

 

A cheaper way could also consist in reserving the first step of the control asking bid to show 12+ and the other steps to show 8-11. :)

The most recent version of MOSCITO uses the following response structure over strong club openings:

 

3NT = game forcing hand with 4=4=5=0 shape

3♠ = game forcing hand 4=5=4=0 shape

3♥ = game forcing hand with 5=4=4=0 shape

3♦ = game forcing hand. 5440 shape with a diamond void

3♣ = AKQxxxx or better in any suit

2NT = game forcing hand. 5440 shape with a major suit void

1NT - 2♠ = various semi-positive hyand patterns

1♠ = negative

1♥ = various semi-positive hand patterns

1♦ = any game force not suitable for 2NT+

[Free]

Sometimes both hands have extras, but not enough to take unusual action by jumping, etc.  We sometimes miss slams.

 

Does anyone have a good way of handling these hands?  No 1st round relays or 1♦ positive please.

I was also thinking at this point which is sometimes inconfortable.

 

For those playing Moscito, why not play 1♥/♠/NT, 2♦ to show (8)9-11 and 2♥/♠/NT, 3♦ to show 12+ ? The bidding is still symetric.. but one level higher :rolleyes: .

 

A cheaper way could also consist in reserving the first step of the control asking bid to show 12+ and the other steps to show 8-11. :D

In moscito there's no real need to show your exact strength right away. Shape is more important, strength comes later. The only thing we want to know at the start is if partner is GF+, semipositive or really weak.

 

After shape is known, we can ask for strength (in SlamPoints), most of the time even below 3NT. If you know most hands are shown completely by 3♥, 3♠ asks strength and 3NT is minimum, then you can see we have space enough. So why waste an entire level just to show strength immediatly, and lose a lot of accuracy in the bidding?

Btw, if you're extremely strong and opener makes a signoff bid, then you can still 'zoom' to show your extra strength... Tools enough.

[Syl20]

After shape is known, we can ask for strength (in SlamPoints), most of the time even below 3NT.  If you know most hands are shown completely by 3♥, 3♠ asks strength and 3NT is minimum, then you can see we have space enough.  So why waste an entire level just to show strength immediatly, and lose a lot of accuracy in the bidding?

Btw, if you're extremely strong and opener makes a signoff bid, then you can still 'zoom' to show your extra strength...  Tools enough.

That was a joke...

My answer was, of course, the second one. :rolleyes:

[csdenmark]

I currently use a homegrown precision system with transfer positive responses.  While I am happy with the system, one of the situations we seem to have problems with is when both responder and opener are stronger than a minimum, but we don't find a trump fit in the first two rounds of bidding.  Something like:

 

1♣ - 1♥ (positive ♠)

2♦ - 3♣

...

 

Sometimes both hands have extras, but not enough to take unusual action by jumping, etc.  We sometimes miss slams.

 

Does anyone have a good way of handling these hands?  No 1st round relays or 1♦ positive please.

 

Rigal's "Precision in the 90's" has a system where responder bids the 1-step response (artificial) with 12+ HCP if opener bids a new suit.  So:

 

1♣ - 1♥ (positive ♠)

2♦ - 2♥ (artificial - extras)

 

This is good both when you show the extras as well as when you deny them.  The drawback is that now you have to bid 2N both with balanced hands as well as those hands that would have bid the one-step suit.  So 2NT could be balanced or with hearts.  Has anyone tried this method?  Anyone have a better one?

It is very difficult to create a private Precision versions without violating a basic element in Precision - the principle of captainship. To me it looks it is here you have problems.

 

1♣ opener is normally captain unless he limits his holdings. This means if you cannot accept the initial response for a deeper investigation you propose an alternative asking for a response to that. Limiting your hand captainship will switch.

 

I have completely stopped playing private versions due to rubbish sequences like your first example. (1♣-1♥-2♦-3♣). Such are by most played as natural exchange of information proposing something reasonable. In precision the sequence is to be interpretated as: 'Sorry, no spade fit(single/void). Tell me your tolerances for diamonds please'. 3♣ is likely to be very positive as 4th step response(something like 4+cards headed by 2 of 3 top-honors). Now time for CAB.

 

Regarding your Rigal-example it looks silly to me. Extra about what? (I dont know Barry Rigal's version, sorry).

 

Extras by the captain are irrelevant to disclose as only opps. are interested. The captain places the contract in accordance to the info received from responder.

[keylime]

Easy, use compressed responses.

 

1H = spades, clubs, or 15+ bal.

1S = hearts, diamonds, or 12-14 bal.

 

Now you got everything suit wise in two bids.

 

2C = single suited hand

2D = balanced, 8-12.

2H/S = weak jump shifts, decent suit

2NT = 4-by-1

3C/D = Flannery hands, fragment bid

3H/S = both minors, stiff/void in suit bid, 3 cards in OTHER major

[cwiggins]

Suit Asking Bids by opener are easy, but the auction will get squeezed on occasion. E.g.

1♣ 2♦ . . . showing hearts

3♣/3♦

are uncomfortably high.

 

 

FWIW, Cohen and Berkowitz have occiasionally referred to what they play as "Neanderthal Natural Precision." They use Fast Arrival to separate strength. So after

1♣ 1♥ . . . showing spades

2♣ 2♠ . . . 6+ spades

?

4♠ is the weakest call: a minmum 1♣ opener and a balanced hand

4♦ and 4♥ = SPL with spade support, minimum 1♣ opener

3♠ = more than a minimum 1♣ opener. Over this, Responder uses Serious (or Frivolous) 3NT to separate his trength.

 

 

After an initial 2 level response, which are the auctions that I find it hard to separate strength, they have one trick. After

1♣ 2♦ . . . showing hearts

2NT

responder uses

3♣ = hearts (so 6+)

3♦ = spades

3♥ = clubs

3♠ = diamonds

and then applies fast arrival.

 

For example: after 3♣ (showing hearts) or 3♦ showing spades

4M = minium hand

3M = more than a minimum

 

After the minor suit responses, auctions are not clear.

 

Absent relays, this is a tough problem.

[adf]

Rigal's "Precision in the 90's" has a system where responder bids the 1-step response (artificial) with 12+ HCP if opener bids a new suit.  So:

 

1♣ - 1♥ (positive ♠)

2♦ - 2♥ (artificial - extras)

 

This is good both when you show the extras as well as when you deny them.  The drawback is that now you have to bid 2N both with balanced hands as well as those hands that would have bid the one-step suit.  So 2NT could be balanced or with hearts.  Has anyone tried this method?  Anyone have a better one?

It seems to me that it would work better to play 2♥ as natural, denying 12-15, and 2NT as artificial, 12-15. There are two reasons I'd favor that treatment. One is that it keeps the bidding low when responder is minimum and you need all the room you can get, to find the best game. The other is that if you end up in a notrump contract, declarer will be reasonably strong; if 2NT could have shown hearts, then you're more likely to wrongside the contract. With 16+, responder can bid naturally, then keep going over opener's signoff.