Place the blame again

[nekthen]

[hv=pc=n&s=st7542ha86d2ckt93&n=sakqhkqdq86caq652&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=pp2np3c(Puppet)p3nppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Everyone else was in 4♠ making +2, we were in 3N also +2 for a zero

I hoped to find p with 5♥. I guess the percentages favour finding a spade fit, but I hoped to ruff ♦ with the hand with short trumps

[cherdano]

I guess the percentages favour finding a spade fit,

"I guess" is putting it mildly. Partner will have 3+ spades the majority of the time. In fact, he will have 3 spades more often than two. He will rarely have 5 hearts.

[TylerE]

South should stop overthinking and just transfer.

[hrothgar]

What is your NT range, cause that looks mighty strong for 2N

[nekthen]

What is your NT range, cause that looks mighty strong for 2N

20-22

[ahydra]

Play Muppet instead, it was built for this exact hand (responder 5=3 in the majors). 2NT-3C; 3H (no major)-3S (5=3); 4S

 

Note that when you have 3=5, you can find a spade fit by playing "accept transfer only with fit", then 2NT-3D; 3S = 5=2 majors

 

ahydra

[mikeh]

Why is this a place the blame problem? Other than agreeing to play a bad notrump range, what did opener do wrong? What responder did wrong is obvious

[neilkaz]

Why is this a place the blame problem? Other than agreeing to play a bad notrump range, what did opener do wrong? What responder did wrong is obvious

Best common sense post I've seen all year!

[neilkaz]

Gag that a ♦ lead could take you -1 when 12 tricks are cold in a Black suit. It is MP and trying for a slam is likely anti-percentage and leaks to much info. Just transfer and bid 3NT and be done.

[nekthen]

Play Muppet instead, it was built for this exact hand (responder 5=3 in the majors). 2NT-3C; 3H (no major)-3S (5=3); 4S

 

Note that when you have 3=5, you can find a spade fit by playing "accept transfer only with fit", then 2NT-3D; 3S = 5=2 majors

 

ahydra

 

Thank you for recognising that it is a problem and providing a solution

[Cyberyeti]

We would transfer automatically (over a 2N bid showing 22-23), opener bids 4♣ showing 5 good clubs and at least Qxx in spades, whether we play 4♠ or 6♣ is now up in the air.

 

If you bid 3♣ (with your methods and mine), you are essentially treating it like you've only got 4 spades, unless you're going to unilaterally pull 3N.

 

We have the tools via a different 3♣ enquiry to know that partner can have 3♠ and 2-4♥, but can't have 2♠ and 2-3♥ so you have the option of showing this as 5♠/4♥ which might be a decent option to play the moysian taking diamond ruffs in the short hand.

[Beerman_55]

South should stop overthinking and just transfer.

Spot on Tyler, S bids 3H (transfer to spades), then whatever tools you have e.g. N bids 3S, S bids 4D to show 1 or 2 round control (Don't forget he is the only one in the auction to know about the singleton D - so he must make it known), N bids 4NT, S bids whatever your convention and knowing you have 4 from 5 keycards then N bids 6S. Cold.

[nudnikbp]

Playing standard with 2NT= 20/21, North has enough to open 2C, then 2S by South, 2NT by North and 3C by South. From there, N-S should be able to get to 6C. If S responds 2D, then 2NT by North, 3H transfer, and 3NT by North. South then bids 4C and N-S get to 6C.

[fluff]

Blame is 100% on opener for being simply macho. Does he know what responder has ? No. How can he decide alone ?

Why do we play bridge ? Opener is not playing bridge.

Just complete the transfer and wait for partner to clarify.

[Cyberyeti]

Blame is 100% on opener for being simply macho. Does he know what responder has ? No. How can he decide alone ?

Why do we play bridge ? Opener is not playing bridge.

Just complete the transfer and wait for partner to clarify.

 

What transfer ? 3♦ I assume would show a 4 card major

[mikeh]

Spot on Tyler, S bids 3H (transfer to spades), then whatever tools you have e.g. N bids 3S, S bids 4D to show 1 or 2 round control (Don't forget he is the only one in the auction to know about the singleton D - so he must make it known), N bids 4NT, S bids whatever your convention and knowing you have 4 from 5 keycards then N bids 6S. Cold.

This thread is littered with comments that show the peril of knowing both hands. Responder has a 7 count with a very weak spade suit. He has zero interest in slam. When, as gophers should, he transfers to spades, he has the worlds clearest 3N rebid.

 

Were he to bid 4D, btw, in normal bridge this shows a second suit.

 

Just to demonstrate how silly looking for slam is, picture AK. KQx KQxx Axxx for opener. This isn’t the worst hand he could have for slam, btw. Try AKx KQJ KQJx QJx. Now even 5S has no play.

[mikeh]

Playing standard with 2NT= 20/21, North has enough to open 2C, then 2S by South, 2NT by North and 3C by South. From there, N-S should be able to get to 6C. If S responds 2D, then 2NT by North, 3H transfer, and 3NT by North. South then bids 4C and N-S get to 6C.

Very few, if any, good players would respond 2S to 2C on 1Oxxxx. Even fewer would deny spade support, as opener, holding AKQ. This post is simply another example of how knowing both hands drives some posters into coming up with magical bidding

[mikeh]

Btw, simple bridge may get you to this decent slam

 

 

2N. 3H

3S. 3N

4C.

 

3H is a transfer, accepted perforce. Some do play that a simple acceptance shows 3+ support, but most players do not, so I will assume normal bridge, just as I accept the 20-22 opening, which I would refuse to play in real life.

 

3N is a choice of games. Responder has no safety beyond 3N at this stage

 

4C shows a maximum opening with good spade support, and the club Ace.

 

Now responder is worth a 4D call, showing a control and interest in cooperating with a slam investigation. Responder would otherwise sign off in 4S.

 

Each partner would need to make winning decisions thereafter. Responder’s concern is that opener may be thinking that AQx is adequate trump support, while opener will not know that 4D was shortness rather than, say, the King. But I .think that opener, hearing responder indicate some interest in slam, looking at those spades, should end up driving to slam.

 

It’s even possible, tho I doubt I’d manage it, for the partnership to back into clubs, if either player were able to eventually bid a choice of slams 5N

[msjennifer]

Sirs, The 3C bid on the responders given hand is just not acceptable.3C bid is made when responder has one or both ONLY 4 carded major/s .Personally I shall bid 3H to 3S transfer and then 4S.(certainly not 3NT with a singleton D and unbalanced hand like the one responder has) A 2NT opener may have only 2 cards in spade but he always accepts the transfer. We have in our experience used 3C BARON with transfers and successful in bidding minor suit 4 -4 fit slams /grand slams very often missed by others. However I ,politely and humbly admit that others may not like this idea.I hope that it is not considered "ridiculous" Additionally we use Ron Klingers treatment of 2NT openers..THANKS

[Cyberyeti]

This thread is littered with comments that show the peril of knowing both hands. Responder has a 7 count with a very weak spade suit. He has zero interest in slam. When, as gophers should, he transfers to spades, he has the worlds clearest 3N rebid.

 

Were he to bid 4D, btw, in normal bridge this shows a second suit.

 

Just to demonstrate how silly looking for slam is, picture AK. KQx KQxx Axxx for opener. This isn’t the worst hand he could have for slam, btw. Try AKx KQJ KQJx QJx. Now even 5S has no play.

 

Mike, what range would 2N (or a 2N rebid after 2♣) need to be for you to look for a slam ?

[TylerE]

Sirs, The 3C bid on the responders given hand is just not acceptable.3C bid is made when responder has one or both ONLY 4 carded major/s .

 

Please don't reply without reading. OP is playing puppet.

[mikeh]

Mike, what range would 2N (or a 2N rebid after 2♣) need to be for you to look for a slam ?

I would need either a better suit, say Qxxxx, or a better hand. Not much better, but moving towards slam when one’s likely primary source of tricks is very weak rarely works out, absent good values elsewhere.

 

Btw, bidding 3S then 3N is not giving up on slam. See my post about what I think north should bid over 3N.

 

Give me the same hcp and, say, 5=2=1=5, and I bid 4C over 3S. We can still play 4N after that start, btw.

 

I don’t believe in simply adding points. Points don’t take tricks. On this hand, for slam to be good, we need either good spades opposite, or a big club fit and a perfect mesh. As it happens, we have both. Of course, when that’s the case, we don’t need to take charge as responder. I admit that I’ll miss some slams: say he has AKx Kxx Axx AQJx. Slam is pretty good and if he has KJx in hearts, even better. But one cannot reach every good contract without also reaching too many bad ones. At least, that’s true, imo, of 99% of bridge players.

[Cyberyeti]

I would need either a better suit, say Qxxxx, or a better hand. Not much better, but moving towards slam when one’s likely primary source of tricks is very weak rarely works out, absent good values elsewhere.

 

Btw, bidding 3S then 3N is not giving up on slam. See my post about what I think north should bid over 3N.

 

Give me the same hcp and, say, 5=2=1=5, and I bid 4C over 3S. We can still play 4N after that start, btw.

 

I don’t believe in simply adding points. Points don’t take tricks. On this hand, for slam to be good, we need either good spades opposite, or a big club fit and a perfect mesh. As it happens, we have both. Of course, when that’s the case, we don’t need to take charge as responder. I admit that I’ll miss some slams: say he has AKx Kxx Axx AQJx. Slam is pretty good and if he has KJx in hearts, even better. But one cannot reach every good contract without also reaching too many bad ones. At least, that’s true, imo, of 99% of bridge players.

 

That wasn't what I meant, I meant if you had that actual 7 count, would you consider rebidding something other than 3N opposite 22-23/23-24/24-25 etc

[mikeh]

That wasn't what I meant, I meant if you had that actual 7 count, would you consider rebidding something other than 3N opposite 22-23/23-24/24-25 etc

In my partnerships, after 2C 2D, we can show 22-23/24-25, etc

 

Obviously I move over 24-25, but over 22-23 I transfer and bid 3N. I learned years ago to ALWAYS pull to the major with 3 card support. I suppose one could construct an exception, but the rule has served me well. The reason is that responder, with a 2-suiter, often can’t show the second suit, with a minimum, and 3N plays worse, sometimes much worse, than 4M. This is quite unlike 1N auctions, where responder can show shape below 3N

 

So here, with that dreadful spade suit, I bid 3N, and expect partner to pull and to cuebid, when he does so, with a great hand, and off to slam we go

 

There’s no need for responder to make all the decisions. Bridge is a partnership game.

[Povratnik]

Slightly off topic, but I'll be very short:

 

... Additionally we use Ron Klingers treatment of 2NT openers..THANKS

Madam, I know nothing about Ron Klinger's treatment of 2NT openers. Are there a free resource where I can read about that?