Yet another bidding problem

[KingCovert]

I had a game at the bridge club last night, and this was one of the hands. I'm curious what contract you'd arrive at, how you'd get there, etc... I'll post the full hand later. :)

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sak8643hakdk932ck&w=shdc&n=sj72h7daqj7cat976&e=shdc]399|300[/hv]

 

South is dealer. It's IMPs.

[hrothgar]

6N seems most likely

 

Strong club opening, bunch of relays.

 

Once it turns out that North has three Spades and no Queen, any grand seems... Problematic.

[helene_t]

1s-2c

2d-4d

4nt-5s

6s

 

4d shows the double fit. It would be nice to show the stiff heart also but unfortunately....

 

5s shows two kcs with one of the two queens. Maybe we should show which one but then we would have to bypass 5s.

 

Without knowing about the stiff heart we don't find 7d.

[apollo1201]

2C (not GF) 2D (nothing special, and suits too weak + risk part has H to try fancy stuff)

2S (strong 2, 8 playing tricks) 3S (forcing raise, SI+)

4C 4D (controls)

4NT (5KCB) 5H (2 w/o)

6S

 

But 6NT is probably safer given we have 2 stoppers everywhere

 

Let me guess, W had QT95 of trumps and the lead was D so you didn’t take the safe play?

[Cyberyeti]

6N seems most likely

 

Strong club opening, bunch of relays.

 

Once it turns out that North has three Spades and no Queen, any grand seems... Problematic.

 

Not at all, 7♦ is great, diamonds 3-2 and spades 3-1/2-2 or diamonds 4-1 and the spades coming in.

 

For us:

 

1♠-2♣

2N(GF not necessarily bal)-3♣(5♣)

3♦(bigger than just bidding 2♦ which would be forcing, about 19+)-3♠

4♣-4♦

4♥-4N(keycard ♠)

5♣(0/3)-5♦(Q?)

5♠(no)-5N(anything else to say)

6N(both red Ks)-7♦

[hrothgar]

Not at all, 7♦ is great, diamonds 3-2 and spades 3-1/2-2 or diamonds 4-1 and the spades coming in.

 

 

D'oh. I missed the spade pitch for 7!♦

[akwoo]

Finding grand with relays after a strong club seems problematic on this hand. You need to find out about the diamond J. Maybe your relay system has enough room to find out jacks with these hands, but most systems will be able to get to jacks only in a few fortunate cases.

[nullve]

nullve-nullve:

 

1♠(1)-2♣(2)

2♠(3)-2N(4)

3♣(5)-3♦(6)

3♥(7)-3♠(8)

4♦(9)-4N(10)

5♦(11)-5♥(12)

6♦(13)-7♦(14)

P

 

(1) "10-21 (or, rather: meets the rule of 19, but not the rule of 31), 5+ S, unBAL"

(2) "NAT, quasi-BAL or Drury"

(3) "19-21" (or, rather: meets the rule of 28, but not the rule of 31), very rarely 1-suited, not 4+ H unless 5S5H

(4) relay

(5) usually 4+ D, but never 5S5D2-C

(6) relay

(7) either 5242, 6S4D(21), 6+S0H4+D or 8+S3(!)D

(8) relay

(9) 6S4D(21), hence 18-20 hcp

(10) Key card ask agreeing S

(11) odd # of key cards, no trump Q

(12) ♦K ask

(13) ♦K, 6241, ♥K, no ♦Q

(14) contract, hopefully (or ♦8 ask :(. I need more precise rules here.)

[pescetom]

This could go two ways for us.

 

If North was feeling conservative it would probably just go:

2♣ - 2♦

2♠ - 4♥ (spl.)

4NT - 5♥ (2-Q)

6♠ - p.

 

With more courage it might go:

2♣ - 2NT (both minors strong)

3♦ - 4♣ (RKC ♦)

4♥ (3) - 5♣ (K?)

6♦ (all) - 7♦

p.

[mikeh]

Showing both hands tends to distort the posts, since we sometimes tend to ‘know’ the final contract

 

 

Here, the start is clear, in a standa d sort of method: 1S. 2C

 

Opener has a big hand so the tradionall way of bidding 6=4 hands is to bid the 4carder now, intending to show the 6th spade later.

 

So 1S 2C 2D

 

Now responder has a tough call. At MPs, showing the spades seems clear, but at imps, this hand now has slam potential....picture AQxxx Ax Kxxxx x as a not great hand for partner where slam is cold.

 

So I think at i,ps, one raises to 3D and now opener has a huge hand. He will assume, incorrectly, that responder lacks 3 spades, so could well keyca d (for us, 4H as kickback)

 

Over the the 5D, 2 with the Queen, south can count 13 tricks on decent splits, and partner is allowed a better hand: say x xxx AQJx AQxxx, so bidding 7D rates to be little, if any, worse than 3-2 trumps and nothing truly ugly in the blacks, and could be flat out cold.

 

Would I and any of my favourite partners get there? I don’t know.

[KingCovert]

Showing both hands tends to distort the posts, since we sometimes tend to ‘know’ the final contract

 

I considered this when making the post, but, alas, I have no way to get useful feedback without providing both. :(

 

I'll wait a little while longer before posting my auction and the full hand. Although, honestly, I think both are irrelevant. They just distract peoples' attention from what actually matters, which is the process/methodology. **shrug**

[FelicityR]

I'll be honest. It's more likely that we will reach a small slam than a grand slam, then again we haven't got all the sophisticated bidding techniques or relay systems that other players have. Make the ♠J the ♠Q and it's far easier to get there.

[pescetom]

.....

So 1S 2C 2D

 

Now responder has a tough call. At MPs, showing the spades seems clear, but at imps, this hand now has slam potential....picture AQxxx Ax Kxxxx x as a not great hand for partner where slam is cold.

 

So I think at imps, one raises to 3D and now opener has a huge hand. He will assume, incorrectly, that responder lacks 3 spades, so could well keycard (for us, 4H as kickback)

 

If we were we to open 1S rather than 2C it would go this way.

Why would your opener assume that responder bidding 3D lacks 3 spades?

For us, he knows it is possible or even probable in the circumstances, in any case the invitation is to investigate slam in diamonds.

[mikeh]

If we were we to open 1S rather than 2C it would go this way.

Why would your opener assume that responder bidding 3D lacks 3 spades?

For us, he knows it is possible or even probable in the circumstances, in any case the invitation is to investigate slam in diamonds.

Because, on many hands, one would raise spades. Indeed, say I held Jxx xx AQxx AQxx, I would bid 2S over 2D, since this hand, despite having more hcp, is less slam suitable.

 

I said ‘assume’, rather than ‘know’, because in most constructive bidding situations one has at some point to make assumptions in order to determine what to do next. Plus, here, opener, having assumed 1 or 2 spades, will also know that all is not yet lost should responder hold xxx.

[KingCovert]

[hv=pc=n&s=sak8643hakdk932ck&w=sq95ht9652dt854c5&n=sj72h7daqj7cat976&e=sthqj843d6cqj8432&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1c(15%2B)p1d(GF)p2d(4%2BD%2C%20Canape%20Style)p3d(4%2BD%2C%20A%2FK%20of%20D)p4n(1430)p5s(2%20w%2F%20Queen)p7d]399|300[/hv]

 

That's the full layout and our auction. It doesn't make on a club lead. Fortunately, I received the singleton spade lead.

 

I was mostly curious as to how many people would reliably find the diamond fit, it's not so easy for 2/1 players to avoid the small slam in spades or NT. I agree with many in this thread though, I think it's a good grand to play, just rather hard to find.

[heart76]

We'd be in 6S (IMPs) after

1S - 3H (0-1 cards, at least invitational in S)

3NT (H cue) - 4C

4NT RKCB, etc.

 

We don't have methods for double fits. Not yet at least.

[msjennifer]

[hv=pc=n&s=sak8643hakdk932ck&w=sq95ht9652dt854c5&n=sj72h7daqj7cat976&e=sthqj843d6cqj8432&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1c(15%2B)p1d(GF)p2d(4%2BD%2C%20Canape%20Style)p3d(4%2BD%2C%20A%2FK%20of%20D)p4n(1430)p5s(2%20w%2F%20Queen)p7d]399|300[/hv]

 

That's the full layout and our auction. It doesn't make on a club lead. Fortunately, I received the singleton spade lead.

 

I was mostly curious as to how many people would reliably find the diamond fit, it's not so easy for 2/1 players to avoid the small slam in spades or NT. I agree with many in this thread though, I think it's a good grand to play, just rather hard to find.

Sir,having a glance at your bidding sequence is it not STRANGE that the spade suit was never ever mentioned ! And if the opening was 1C then how come the response was 1D ?All in all it appears to be a strange

system. Leaving it all alone I must admit that even playing a strong club system or a standard system we will never ever bid 7D as we just can not count to 13.One can never make if the spades break 4-0 as you have seen earlier.Although one can easily see that a safety play in spade suit will ensure 12 tricks in 6S how can one know the presence of a Jxx with N and the most important EIGHT of spades in S hand ?In a contract of 7D there is the possibility of a spade ruff on the opening lead itself.One easily sees the SJ in the diagram but not in real life bidding.!.All said we shall stop in 6S as its an IMP event and in 6NT when it is MP scoring.How one reaches these contracts and that too easily has been amply discussed by all others.I have to admit even any contract either 6S or 7D go down by replying that either opponent "may"hold QJ109 of spades or diamonds may break 5-0.But in a broad sense practically every pair may bid 6NT OR 6S as per their mood and methods.THANKS

[pescetom]

Because, on many hands, one would raise spades. Indeed, say I held Jxx xx AQxx AQxx, I would bid 2S over 2D, since this hand, despite having more hcp, is less slam suitable.

 

I said ‘assume’, rather than ‘know’, because in most constructive bidding situations one has at some point to make assumptions in order to determine what to do next. Plus, here, opener, having assumed 1 or 2 spades, will also know that all is not yet lost should responder hold xxx.

 

Makes sense, thanks. We too might raise spades rather than diamonds with lesser hands, just a doubt about the use of 'assume'.

[pescetom]

[hv=pc=n&s=sak8643hakdk932ck&w=sq95ht9652dt854c5&n=sj72h7daqj7cat976&e=sthqj843d6cqj8432&d=n&v=n&b=15&a=1c1h]399|300[/hv]

 

If North was dealer an uncontested auction would be no more difficult, but it's sobering to note the damage that EW can do by bidding hearts aggressively.

They even have a valid sacrifice in 7♥x if NS do reach slam all the same.

[KingCovert]

Sir,having a glance at your bidding sequence is it not STRANGE that the spade suit was never ever mentioned ! And if the opening was 1C then how come the response was 1D ?All in all it appears to be a strange

system. Leaving it all alone I must admit that even playing a strong club system or a standard system we will never ever bid 7D as we just can not count to 13.One can never make if the spades break 4-0 as you have seen earlier.Although one can easily see that a safety play in spade suit will ensure 12 tricks in 6S how can one know the presence of a Jxx with N and the most important EIGHT of spades in S hand ?In a contract of 7D there is the possibility of a spade ruff on the opening lead itself.One easily sees the SJ in the diagram but not in real life bidding.!.All said we shall stop in 6S as its an IMP event and in 6NT when it is MP scoring.How one reaches these contracts and that too easily has been amply discussed by all others.I have to admit even any contract either 6S or 7D go down by replying that either opponent "may"hold QJ109 of spades or diamonds may break 5-0.But in a broad sense practically every pair may bid 6NT OR 6S as per their mood and methods.THANKS

 

Hehe, yeah, 1♦ is a Game-Forcing reply. I think the meanings of the bids are all highlighted on the post, and you can hover them to see their meanings. We play Canape in this sequence, so, South will introduce the shorter suit of a two-suited hand first. After my 3♦ raise, which is simultaneously a cue-bid showing the A or K of ♦, possibly both, we've agreed a 4-4 or better fit, and we're no longer interested in finding a different fit, 4-4 fits are just simply better a significant majority of the time. We'd usually start cue-bidding, but this is a key-card auction from South's perspective.

 

As for the likelihood of these slams making, the odds are too good to pass up. Defenders make mistakes far too often, or the correct play is simply not the winning play. If one only played slam when it made 100% of the time, they'd be an incredibly mediocre bridge player. 5-0 diamond break, or a 4-0 spade break when the player with 4 spades is on lead are just incredibly unlikely occurrences. The player on lead also has to find a spade lead, in this case, in an auction where spades were never mentioned, and from a rather lackluster suit. Players will tend to make passive leads (usually correctly) against slams, and grands especially.

 

So, I'd say, if your small slam is about 60% to make, you should play it, and if your grand slam is about 75-80% to make, you should play it. Possibly more aggressively than that. Although at IMPs, it really just depends on the state of the match.