Wrong slam

[AL78]

Here is a tricky hand that came up with my novice friend.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sj5432hakjdacaqt2&w=skqt876h64d632cj4&n=sahq985dqt7ck9876&e=s9ht732dkj9854c53]399|300[/hv]

 

My friend was sitting South. Her partner decided to open 1♥ then bid 2♣ (I don't know if East weak jumped in diamonds or not, but it doesn't matter). She drove to 6♥ and North went two down. 7♣ is cold on this layout.

 

Whilst there are times when opening the shorter of two suits is best when holding a weak opening hand and not strong enough to reverse, I feel lying about the length of a major is dangerous here, because North doesn't have a way of steering the bidding towards a proper fit (they won't find out about the club support opposite before South drives to a slam in hearts). I think it is best to pass with the North hand initially, or if they want to open, be prepared to rebid clubs. What do you think?

[johnu]

Are you expecting somebody to agree that opening 1♥ is the correct or best bid on this hand (except for those playing a canape system)?

[Cyberyeti]

You open 1♣ being prepared to bid 2♣

[FelicityR]

In Acol I would be passing with the North hand as you haven't got a sensible rebid with the North hand over 1♠, except if you have agreed to open 11 point hands and rebid poor-ish minor suits at the two level (as per Cyberyeti). Opening 1♥ and rebidding 2♣ is anti-Acol (as Acol is a neat system that caters primarily for length over strength) and, without sounding too dismissive or rude, is frankly ludicrous and should never have happened.

[pescetom]

Playing 2/1 we would (just) open with 1♣, but never rebid 2♣ on 5 cards. A rebid of 1NT after 1♠ may disturb the purists but it works well enough and allows responder with that big hand to make a 2♦ artificial game force, after which the club fit emerges.

[KingCovert]

I'm really not sure there's much to this discussion. It depends on your agreements. It can be the case that some agreements are bad, or that some people have little mastery of their agreements... But, this thread boils down to, "What do you think about someone ignoring their agreements and making the wrong opening bid according to their agreements?" Obviously, this is a bad idea.

 

As for the actual decision, I'd open this hand 1♥ because I play Canape. In most other systems though... Is there some particular reason why I want to play in hearts on this hand? Seems like a greedy attempt to declare more-so than anything else.

 

If you don't want to open this hand 1♣, because you're worried about finding a second bid, you have three choices, ranked in this order:

 

1) Pass

2) Find a better system.

3) Lie about your hand, erode partnership trust, and get a bad board 90% of the time.

[Cyberyeti]

Playing 2/1 we would (just) open with 1♣, but never rebid 2♣ on 5 cards. A rebid of 1NT after 1♠ may disturb the purists but it works well enough and allows responder with that big hand to make a 2♦ artificial game force, after which the club fit emerges.

 

Yup, but in a weak NT context you can't do that, in strong NT what do you open/rebid with a 143bad5 15 too good for a 1N rebid when it goes 1♣-1♠ ?

[AL78]

Are you expecting somebody to agree that opening 1♥ is the correct or best bid on this hand (except for those playing a canape system)?

 

No, I was hoping for some discussion on whether opening and rebidding clubs or not opening the North hand is best. Obviously I don't agree with opening 1♥ given they were playing Acol.

 

Openingn 1♣ followed by 1NT after a 1♠ response is not an option, as that would show 15-16 HCP.

[mikeh]

Given the constraints of the methods, and assuming the 1N range was 12-14, I would pass the north hand. It seems to be a recurring theme for me, in that I think evaluating this as an opening hand gives too much weight to the stiff spade Ace, which the 4321 count overstated due to its being stiff. Also, the rebid problem is horrendous. If I were forced to open, I’d bid 1N as the smallest distortion.

 

As for reaching 6H, it’s tough to criticize non-experts but assuming that North is 5=4 or 6=5, and not 4=5, south should aim for 6C as a safer contract. Obviously at mps the major is attractive. I wouldn’t worry about grand. I doubt the partnership has a way of knowing that opener is not 2524

[pilowsky]

I agree with pescetom. It's possible that Mikeh's use of the term 'horrendous' is a little dramatic, If I don't follow the card and bid the same way each time, why should my partner trust me next time? 1♣ with a rebid of 1NT unless partner makes some other sort of forcing bid is the systemic opening in 2/1. In this case given that your partner has a great hand (19HCP) a call of 3NT would be reasonable. After all, 11+19 is 30. If my partner was stronger than a minimum they can bid more. My understanding of bridge is that one should not chop and change one's system in a whimsical way. This is a great example of how it helps to practice with robots.

When I put the hand into the GIB double-dummy with that bidding sequence it gave me this: https://tinyurl.com/qmwn4cn Which apparently results in 3NT+2 following any lead. Maybe I missed something? I hope that is helpful.

[pescetom]

I agree with pescetom. It's possible that Mikeh's use of the term 'horrendous' is a little dramatic, If I don't follow the card and bid the same way each time, why should my partner trust me next time? 1♣ with a rebid of 1NT unless partner makes some other sort of forcing bid is the systemic opening in 2/1.

I mentioned one treatment in 2/1 with strong NT, mikeh was quite rightly discussing the methods and constraints of the OP, ACOL with weak NT.

Apples and pears - and of course the OP has precedence.

[pilowsky]

My comment stands. The use of of terms such as 'horrendous' and it's 'tough to criticise non-experts' (in itself a barely veiled criticism) are not helpful. Anyway, if mikeh is feeling put out I'm sure he'll leap to his own defence.

[sfi]

Given the constraints of the methods, and assuming the 1N range was 12-14, I would pass the north hand. It seems to be a recurring theme for me, in that I think evaluating this as an opening hand gives too much weight to the stiff spade Ace, which the 4321 count overstated due to its being stiff. Also, the rebid problem is horrendous. If I were forced to open, I’d bid 1N as the smallest distortion.

IMO you're being unduly negative about opening. Partner doesn't always respond spades, and if they bid something else you're almost always going to be better off than if you pass. You have good spot cards and 1NT is likely to get you to a playable spot most of the time.

 

But yeah - the awful rebid problem after a 1C opener does make opening 1NT look pretty good.

[johnu]

I agree with pescetom. It's possible that Mikeh's use of the term 'horrendous' is a little dramatic, If I don't follow the card and bid the same way each time, why should my partner trust me next time? 1♣ with a rebid of 1NT unless partner makes some other sort of forcing bid is the systemic opening in 2/1. In this case given that your partner has a great hand (19HCP) a call of 3NT would be reasonable. After all, 11+19 is 30. If my partner was stronger than a minimum they can bid more. My understanding of bridge is that one should not chop and change one's system in a whimsical way. This is a great example of how it helps to practice with robots.

3NT is an awful bid that would prevent any investigation of slam. Opener is basically barred from bidding over 3NT because responder may have 12 or 13 HCP in a balanced hand. Opener could have closer to a maximum for a 1NT rebid, and even with the actual hand, there is a good club slam to be bid.

 

Responder with 19 HCP and lots of controls is the one who knows that the partnership is in or close to the slam range.

 

When I put the hand into the GIB double-dummy with that bidding sequence it gave me this: https://tinyurl.com/qmwn4cn Which apparently results in 3NT+2 following any lead. Maybe I missed something? I hope that is helpful.

You don't need GIB to see that there are 11 top winners available in NT.

[gml2]

The hand satisfies the rules of 20 and 22, with very good intermediates, so I wouldn't pass. 1C is nearly 100% in my opinion. A good partner will not bid spades, so the concern over a rebid is (I'd estimate) going to occur less than half the time- lefty may be the spade overcaller. I wouldn't rebid 2C if partner responds 1S and opponents pass, but 1N isn't horrible. I might get reopen with a double over lefty's 1S and find partner with a spade stack.

[Cyberyeti]

The hand satisfies the rules of 20 and 22, with very good intermediates, so I wouldn't pass. 1C is nearly 100% in my opinion. A good partner will not bid spades, so the concern over a rebid is (I'd estimate) going to occur less than half the time- lefty may be the spade overcaller. I wouldn't rebid 2C if partner responds 1S and opponents pass, but 1N isn't horrible. I might get reopen with a double over lefty's 1S and find partner with a spade stack.

 

And what do you do if 1N shows 15-16 as it does for the OP who plays a weak notrump ?

[iandayre]

I would pass this N hand, but the same question arises with the D or A of D instead of the Q. I am not fond of either choice but I would open 1C and rebid 1NT. A 1H opening is not a consideration.

[bluenikki]

Here is a tricky hand that came up with my novice friend.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sj5432hakjdacaqt2&w=skqt876h64d632cj4&n=sahq985dqt7ck9876&e=s9ht732dkj9854c53]399|300[/hv]

 

My friend was sitting South. Her partner decided to open 1♥ then bid 2♣ (I don't know if East weak jumped in diamonds or not, but it doesn't matter). She drove to 6♥ and North went two down. 7♣ is cold on this layout.

 

Whilst there are times when opening the shorter of two suits is best when holding a weak opening hand and not strong enough to reverse, I feel lying about the length of a major is dangerous here, because North doesn't have a way of steering the bidding towards a proper fit (they won't find out about the club support opposite before South drives to a slam in hearts). I think it is best to pass with the North hand initially, or if they want to open, be prepared to rebid clubs. What do you think?

 

Focus on South. South expects to reach slam. So what he must avoid at all costs is bidding a bad suit.

 

If South responds 2♣ .....

 

(Of course, North does not have an opening hand. CCCC 11.40. 10.95 without the 9s)

[AL78]

The hand satisfies the rules of 20 and 22, with very good intermediates, so I wouldn't pass. 1C is nearly 100% in my opinion. A good partner will not bid spades ...

 

They will if they have a spade suit, which is likely holding a singleton and no spade overcall. South is not going to avoid showing a 5 card major just in case North might have a hand with a rebid problem.

[Cyberyeti]

Focus on South. South expects to reach slam. So what he must avoid at all costs is bidding a bad suit.

 

If South responds 2♣ .....

 

(Of course, North does not have an opening hand. CCCC 11.40. 10.95 without the 9s)

 

That makes it a solid rule of 20 hand, more than enough for us to open, also to the people opening 1♣ and rebidding 1N THIS SHOWS 15-16 in the commonly played system where the OP is - YOU DON'T HAVE THIS OPTION, it's not anything like as difficult playing strong NT

[Tramticket]

... given they were playing Acol.

 

I have played Acol for decades and played against Acol for decades. I can't imagine any hand where I would choose to open a four-card suit ahead of a five-card suit. It simply is not Acol.

 

Let's see what happens if you open 1H:

- Partner might respond 2D and things really are horrendous.It might not be ideal to rebid a five-card minor, but it is far more preferable than rebiddinv a for-card major. Any other rebid is awful: 3C shows reversing values, is forcing to game and promises at least a five-card heart suit. 2Nt shows a balanced 15+ and is forcing. A diamond raise shows 4+ support and a five-card heart suit.

- Thing aren't much better if partner responds 1S: you can't rebid NT playing a weak NT and a 2C rebid promises 5+ hearts.

- Maybe partner will respond 1NT: You might try passing, but opponents have at least 9 spades and you could be very vulnerable once the ace is dislodged. A singleton ace is a poor stop since you can't hold up. Worse is to rebid 2C and hear partner give false preference to hearts with three clubs and a doubleton heart.

- Even a 2C response might work badly - you raise clubs but partner keeps putting you back to hearts because he has a three-card heart "fit".

 

Personally I pass. If I were to bid, I would open 1C and be prepared to rebid the suit or open 1NT. Opening 1H is never a possibility.

[johnu]

Focus on South. South expects to reach slam. So what he must avoid at all costs is bidding a bad suit.

 

If South responds 2♣ .....

 

(Of course, North does not have an opening hand. CCCC 11.40. 10.95 without the 9s)

Assuming North opens 1♣ that even most novice/beginner bidders would open (or maybe pass if not 1♣)(not the canape 1♥) what are you planning on responding? Maybe 5-3 spades is your best suit contract.

[bluenikki]

Assuming North opens 1♣ that even most novice/beginner bidders would open (or maybe pass if not 1♣)(not the canape 1♥) what are you planning on responding? Maybe 5-3 spades is your best suit contract.

 

If your ambition is limited to game, that's so.

 

Do *you* have reliable methods to reach slam in a different suit after spades have been "agreed"? Does a novice? The way to avoid reaching slam in a suit with 2 losers is for the player who knows the hand is slam-zone to refuse to bid the suit first.

[johnu]

If your ambition is limited to game, that's so.

 

Do *you* have reliable methods to reach slam in a different suit after spades have been "agreed"? Does a novice? The way to avoid reaching slam in a suit with 2 losers is for the player who knows the hand is slam-zone to refuse to bid the suit first.

I missed where you told me what you would respond after a 1♣ opening bid.

 

Well, there's always RKB to check for suit quality in spades after finding a fit if that's all you need to check. But suppose you manage to avoid a bad 5-3 (or 5-4) spade fit, and end up in clubs. You still need to avoid losing extra tricks in spades and I doubt that a non-relay pair could bid with confidence.

[bluenikki]

I missed where you told me what you would respond after a 1♣ opening bid.

 

Well, there's always RKB to check for suit quality in spades after finding a fit if that's all you need to check. But suppose you manage to avoid a bad 5-3 (or 5-4) spade fit, and end up in clubs. You still need to avoid losing extra tricks in spades and I doubt that a non-relay pair could bid with confidence.

 

 

I respond whatever forcing raise is in clubs.

 

As to RKC that is precisely the point: you discover there is no good way to reach slam in another suit. And if the spade fit is 5-3 you may well have only one loser there if it is side suit where there are 2 losers when it is trumps.

 

Actually, with this kind of power, you usually want to play in NT if there is no slam. How can you do that after RKC????