UDCA carding

[ruleof15]

I play Lavinthal Carding or known by it's other name "Suit Preference". I have modernized Lavinthal to make it more accurate. It is a very simple system. A high card is for the high suit, low card for the low suit and second low for continuation. This is when in a suit contract. At NT use dummy's long suit as the anchor suit and signal along. I have been playing this for 30 years. It is devastating.

[rowdy]

On opening lead in a suit contract, with a doubleton in an unbid suit, playing UDCA, do you lead the low card with XX, and the high card with, say JX?

[Vampyr]

On opening lead in a suit contract, with a doubleton in an unbid suit, playing UDCA, do you lead the low card with XX, and the high card with, say JX?

 

It’s really up to you. In some countries low from a doubleton is very popular. Where I live, not so much.

[Zelandakh]

Ok. So , those who play UDCA...

 

1. What do you signal in first discard in suit contracts?

2. What do you signal in first discard against NT?

UDCA does not change what you want to show at all, only what you show it with. So if you play Lavinthal/McKenny you will signal suit preference and if you play natural it will be attitude. Similarly for O/E, Dodds, etc. For what it is worth my preference is just to play natural (upside down) discards but my current partner likes Lavinthal against NT so we are using that. As someone already mentioned, adding Smith Echo probably has considerably more impact.

 

In the end the only real difference you have to make is in which card you signal with. There is a very small benefit to UDCA over Standard in that it has been shown that there is a slightly lower probability of being unable to signal correctly due to the signal card needing to be kept. But you do not have to change anything in your methods whatsoever when switching from Standard to UDCA. Just get used to which card is the right one so you can follow in tempo consistently.

[gordontd]

UDCA refers to following suit, primarily.

Not in my opinion or experience.

[Vampyr]

Not in my opinion or experience.

 

Well, yes, discards too. I was a bit confused by the question, which as far as I could tell meant could you play UCDA when following suit but play Lavinthal discards, or SP discards later in the hand. I was trying, unsuccessfully, to say that your discard system and the way you follow suit do not have to match.

[perko90]

Here in England many people play a perverted hybrid of reverse attitude but standard count... For some reason people like this system but I wouldn’t recommend it.

 

Upside-down attitude is better than standard for several reasons:

1) It's a card-saver. With standard, sometimes using those high spot cards to encourage can cost a trick

2) Less calculation. With standard, when you have say KT42, you have to do a calculation of whether you can afford to play the high card to encourage or whether ptr can read that 4 as high. Even if you get it right, it's a totally unnecessary thing with upside-down attitude (your lowest is your lowest)

3) It's more consistent, especially for beginners, with how we teach the rest of the carding. Regardless of signals, we teach novices: "lead low if you like it and high if you want a switch." That's a form of attitude leads, which is more consistent with upside-down signals. Low = like; High = don't like.

 

For count, it doesn't matter too much which you choose. But here, especially for novices and intermediates, with upside-down count, you're expected to switch to standard current count after the suit's been broken. This takes extra thinking for the context switching. It's unnecessary for standard count.

 

So, for the above reasons, my favorite is upside-down attitude, standard count. And no, it's not "perverted." And, no, it doesn't get signals mixed up for situation X or Y. If you and partner don't know which situation is count and which is attitude, that's a different problem! And it has nothing to do with which method you choose!

[akwoo]

I play Lavinthal Carding or known by it's other name "Suit Preference". I have modernized Lavinthal to make it more accurate. It is a very simple system. A high card is for the high suit, low card for the low suit and second low for continuation. This is when in a suit contract. At NT use dummy's long suit as the anchor suit and signal along. I have been playing this for 30 years. It is devastating.

 

It's also illegal in the ACBL. When following suit, the only allowable signals are standard or upside down.

 

On the first discard (and only the first discard - not the second and following), you are allowed Lavinthal or odd/even.

[Zelandakh]

But here, especially for novices and intermediates, with upside-down count, you're expected to switch to standard current count after the suit's been broken. This takes extra thinking for the context switching. It's unnecessary for standard count.

Not entirely sure I understand what you mean. Say Partner leads the ace and follows with the king where we have 962, so we obviously discourage and show even remaining count. Playing Standard we would play 2-9. Playing udca it would be 9-2. Your method, and also your version of udca gives 9-6. Are you telling us that there is something wrong with the 9-2 approach that the rest of the world is missing? In any case, in this scenario it does not matter but if we instead held J92, udca gives us 9-2 (assuming we are discouraging the lead). Standard would start with the 2 but we either have to sacrifice the J or lie for the count. Similarly for your udasc but this time starting with the 9.

 

In fact, the analysis I have seen from people who have analysed all card combinations in great detail is that udca is forced to lie least of the 4 possible high-low attitude + count variations. The differences are not huge but for players that want to optimise absolutely, udca is probably the way to go. For most people though, just play what you are comfortable with. It is far more important to concentrate on the hand than be worrying about giving the right signal against your normal instincts.

[Vampyr]

For most people though, just play what you are comfortable with. It is far more important to concentrate on the hand than be worrying about giving the right signal against your normal instincts.

 

Quite. This is why, since one way is not more “natural” than another, it makes sense to teach beginners reverse signals.

[Zelandakh]

Quite. This is why, since one way is not more “natural” than another, it makes sense to teach beginners reverse signals.

That is probably true for beginners that are learning together as a pair. For beginners learning alone though, what matters most is that they are able to play with others in their area, so if everyone else plays standard signals it is going to be a lot easier for them to learn that as well. Essentially the same arguments apply to carding as to bidding systems. If you are a beginner without a partner and noone else at the local club understands the system you play, then your experience of the game is unlikely to be a positive one.

[akwoo]

Quite. This is why, since one way is not more “natural” than another, it makes sense to teach beginners reverse signals.

 

The vast majority of beginners do not signal at all, and frankly they usually have enough trouble keeping track of the highest remaining card in each suit to worry about signaling or paying attention to partner's signals.

 

Let's say your partner signals correctly roughly half the time (with whatever system you've agreed) and the other half of the time automatically plays their lowest card in the suit when not playing an honor. I'm pretty sure you'd strongly prefer standard carding in this situation, and it's why standard carding is standard.

[smerriman]

Let's say your partner signals correctly roughly half the time (with whatever system you've agreed) and the other half of the time automatically plays their lowest card in the suit when not playing an honor. I'm pretty sure you'd strongly prefer standard carding in this situation, and it's why standard carding is standard.

But if you tell them that low is encouraging, it will get them to focus on every card they play and they'll start learning far quicker, rather than letting them slip into bad habits. Was definitely true for me.

[helene_t]

What are people being taught, strong jump over calls? Where do these lessons take place, in the 70s?

Ha-ha, North of England, but maybe that is the same thing :)

[pilowsky]

Ha-ha, North of England, but maybe that is the same thing :)

Eh, watch it ah grew oop in Sheffield in '60's - used t play on road, eat pickle and like. Cold dark.....

[Vampyr]

The vast majority of beginners do not signal at all, and frankly they usually have enough trouble keeping track of the highest remaining card in each suit to worry about signaling or paying attention to partner's signals.

 

Let's say your partner signals correctly roughly half the time (with whatever system you've agreed) and the other half of the time automatically plays their lowest card in the suit when not playing an honor. I'm pretty sure you'd strongly prefer standard carding in this situation, and it's why standard carding is standard.

 

I don’t understand what you are trying to say.

[KingCovert]

I don’t understand what you are trying to say.

 

I think he's pretty clear. Beginners tend to simply play their smallest card when following suit, and pay little attention to their signals. You won't be able to differentiate when they're actually signalling and when they're being lazy or inattentive if you play upside down carding with them. However, if a beginner plays a surprisingly high card, either it's a standard signal, or a signal of a rather surprising break in the suit. You can infer information.

 

I'm not saying that I believe that this is enough reason to teach beginners standard carding, or to suppose that it is better, I prefer upside down carding, and I think that it's just simply better some small percentage of the time, and standard carding is better an even smaller percentage of the time. But, his position is certainly rational.

[akwoo]

But if you tell them that low is encouraging, it will get them to focus on every card they play and they'll start learning far quicker, rather than letting them slip into bad habits. Was definitely true for me.

 

You try to get the average beginner to focus on every card they play, and they'll be forgetting whether the ace of hearts is out or whether trumps have been drawn. After a couple of hands, they'll be so exhausted they'll have trouble following suit.

[helene_t]

You try to get the average beginner to focus on every card they play, and they'll be forgetting whether the ace of hearts is out or whether trumps have been drawn. After a couple of hands, they'll be so exhausted they'll have trouble following suit.

This is maybe the crux of the matter. Should beginners be taught to always play spotcards systematically, or should they be taught to primarily rely on natural inference and only use conventional carding occasionally?

 

(By "natural" I mean basic things like "play any spot card if you can't or won't play an honour").

[akwoo]

This is maybe the crux of the matter. Should beginners be taught to always play spotcards systematically, or should they be taught to primarily rely on natural inference and only use conventional carding occasionally?

 

(By "natural" I mean basic things like "play any spot card if you can't or won't play an honour").

 

Neither. They should be allowed to play badly until they have enough hands under their belts (which is more for some and almost none for others) to start thinking about trying to infer anything at all.