UDCA carding

[Dinarius]

One of my partners is trying to persuade me to switch to UDCA.

 

1. Who uses it?

2. If you don’t like, what do you prefer, and why?

3. Can someone point me to a good online UDCA primer? This is the only one I’ve found.

 

https://www.bridgebum.com/upside_down_count_attitude.php

 

Thanks.

 

D.

[Vampyr]

I use it. That online resource you linked to is fine. What more do you need to know? If you are already familiar with count and attitude signals, the only difference is that you use different cards. If you are not, then really reverse is the better way to start out.

 

Here in England many people play a perverted hybrid of reverse attitude but standard count. I have never seen the point of this, especially eg when partner leads a high honour and you have a doubleton. For some reason people like this system but I wouldn’t recommend it.

[mycroft]

I prefer it, but will play what partner wants. The arguments will go forever, but the big idea of playing a low card to encourage partner rather than a potentially trick-losing 8 or 9 is huge.

Yes, right-side-up players know to play the 5 or 6 instead of the 8 or 9 in those situations, and their partner is "always" able to read it... And yes, right-side-up players laugh when the discouraging 8 or 9 pooches partner's stopper, too...

 

All I will say is when you first switch, DO NOT go back to standard for at least a month, even with pickups. One game of standard will set you back two to three weeks of "reading" UDCA. Once you're truly comfortable with UD carding, you can switch pretty much straight up.

 

Re Vampyr's confusion with UDA only: I've heard this a number of times, and the reasons I've played UDA is that upside-down count is much harder to internalize than upside-down attitude. I don't know why, but I do know that "low = like" is easy, "low = even" is not. In answer to her comment about "when partner leads a high honour and you have a doubleton", I've heard this from a lot of experts, and my answer is still "why does it have to match? Either partner is expecting attitude, in which case I encourage, or partner is expecting count, in which case I show even. WTP?"

[johnu]

1. Who uses it?

One of the theories behind using UDCA, at least the attitude part, is the general principle that you should throw losers, and keep winners. You shouldn't signal with a card that could reasonably win a trick. UDCA generally follows that principle, standard attitude generally doesn't.

[KingCovert]

My philosophy as to why I prefer UDCA is simple. It's intuitive to me that throwing high cards to encourage is just strange, and while I'm not certain it's better, it's definitely not worse.

[helene_t]

I am not so fond of UDCA.

 

For one thing, playing Q on partner's A/K to show the Jack is very natural, and although UDCA players play this, too, it probably doesn't generalize to for example playing J to show the T?

 

Then there's the issue that everybody plays standard current count, even if they play UD count if the suit hasn't been played before.

 

Finally, even if playing UDCA there could still be situations where I need to unblock from Jx or maybe Tx.

 

Of course those silly problems are non-issues for people who are used to UDCA. It's just that I never got used to it. And switching from Std to UDCA doesn't seem trivial, for the above mentioned reasons.

 

I do like low-encourages when discarding, though.

[Vampyr]

Of course those silly problems are non-issues for people who are used to UDCA. It's just that I never got used to it. And switching from Std to UDCA doesn't seem trivial, for the above mentioned reasons.

 

Do you agree with me that beginners should start with UDCA so they don’t have to switch?

[helene_t]

Do you agree with me that beginners should start with UDCA so they don’t have to switch?

Maybe. They learn low-encourages leads so why not low-encourages carding, for consistency? On the other hand, they also learn to lead high from a doubleton. Actually, Norwegian carding (Std Count, UD attitude) combined with 1-3-5 leads is very consistent so maybe they should learn that.

 

That they don't have to switch is not a good argument, though. You could also say that they have to learn 2/1 GF and weak jump overcalls so they don't have to switch. But most will never switch anyway.

[pilowsky]

When I asked the first person I met someone on BBO using UDCA if that was the University in Calfornia they attended, they replied: "Yes, the University for Dummies, California". I too have a lot of trouble with this method, so you have spurred my interest. Incorporating all my usual learning tools, I have come up with the following draft for comment and criticism. Here's some Diana Ross to help

. Apologies to Jeff Tang if I have mangled the Bridgebum ideas. Thank you, if they are correct.

 

UDCA

https://i.imgur.com/lx6VeGn.png

Well, my image attachment skills are broken today, so you'll have to click on the link...

[Tramticket]

I tend to prefer standard attitude, but play reverse attitude, standard count with my main partner.

 

I do like low-encourages when discarding, though.

 

Interesting - why? This is the one that I have strongest feelings about. My philosophy when discarding is to generally play suits that I don't want led. When I play low discards are encouraging, I find that I discard high card like confetti in order to keep my long suit.

[Dinarius]

Does UDCA remove the need for suit preference discards?

 

D.

[Vampyr]

That they don't have to switch is not a good argument, though. You could also say that they have to learn 2/1 GF

 

If everyone in the area is playing 2/1 GF you might as well teach it to beginners. It is a lot simpler than Standard American anyway,

and weak jump overcalls so they don't have to switch. But most will never switch anyway.

 

What are people being taught, strong jump over calls? Where do these lessons take place, in the 70s?

[Vampyr]

Does UDCA remove the need for suit preference discards?

 

D.

 

UDCA refers to following suit, primarily.

[Dinarius]

Thanks for the reply.

 

Yet, in the BB example in my link above, East conveniently has 5 diamonds and can afford to signal a switch with ♦️2 when discarding, not following.

 

So, what happens if ♦️ suit is four card? Now you want to show it via suit preference, right?

 

Thanks.

 

D.

[bluenikki]

I use it. That online resource you linked to is fine. What more do you need to know? If you are already familiar with count and attitude signals, the only difference is that you use different cards. If you are not, then really reverse is the better way to start out.

 

Here in England many people play a perverted hybrid of reverse attitude but standard count. I have never seen the point of this, especially eg when partner leads a high honour and you have a doubleton. For some reason people like this system but I wouldn’t recommend it.

 

The point of reverse attitude/standard count: You hold . K932. Partner's opening lead is this suit, won by dummy's ace. You play the 2. Your next signal in this suit is supposed to be count. But you must not waste the 9! So udca forces you to falsecard.

[bluenikki]

I use it. That online resource you linked to is fine. What more do you need to know? If you are already familiar with count and attitude signals, the only difference is that you use different cards. If you are not, then really reverse is the better way to start out.

 

Here in England many people play a perverted hybrid of reverse attitude but standard count. I have never seen the point of this, especially eg when partner leads a high honour and you have a doubleton. For some reason people like this system but I wouldn’t recommend it.

 

When you have a doubleton is when upside down shines. When you have an honor you can show it. When you have no honor you (SHOULD) want to discourage, and you can conveniently.

[heart76]

Whatever you will hear as an answer to you question (yes, mine too) is just the definition of confirmation bias. Players adopt the methods they think are best, so whichever example you put up they will use to confirm their idea.

FWIW, I think Italian discards are better, because I want to choose to keep a high or low card depending on the suit and I think that the chance of having an even or odd card when I need it is greater than low or high, when you also don't want to risk to give a trick away. Is it silly? Yes, as much as all other agreements: they simply cannot cater for every situation.

[miamijd]

UDA:

 

When you want partner to lead a suit, you generally don't want to have a waste 9s and 10s. Conversely, when you don't want partner to lead a suit, you typically don't care which spot card you throw.

 

UDC:

With four cards in a suit, you may need to guard against declarer's or dummy's length, so you might not be able to afford second high. Third high may not be clear to partner (and if you don't care if it's clear to partner, then why show count at all there).

 

This is less likely to be a problem when you have only three cards in a suit.

 

With two, it probably won't matter much, although you might not want to have to throw the 10 from Tx.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Dinarius]

Ok. So , those who play UDCA...

 

1. What do you signal in first discard in suit contracts?

2. What do you signal in first discard against NT?

 

Thanks.

 

D.

[miamijd]

Ok. So , those who play UDCA...

 

1. What do you signal in first discard in suit contracts?

2. What do you signal in first discard against NT?

 

Thanks.

 

D.

 

Discards are different than following suit. UDCA is generally for following suit.

 

Personally, I like odd-even discards against both suit and NT. But if I'm forced to choose between upside down and standard discards, I would pick upside down. Your first discard is normally going to be attitude, and I'd rather throw a low card from a suit I'm interested in than a high one. From a suit I'm not interested in, it's not likely to matter much.

 

Reverse Smith is very useful vs. NT (but that's for following suit at trick 2).

[dsLawsd]

I have used them for 40 years with partners who like that approach.

Bridge World Standard uses them now.

Not much is written specifically about them but I do recommend the following book: Partnership Defense in Bridge by Kit Woolsey for its landmark approach to this part of the game. He notes on page 155-6 how it works especially that many times declarer cannot false card you.

 

A new approach I admire is Zia+Rosenberg who USE STANDARD carding at Trick 1, UDCA thereafter. Discards are always UD. Try them.

Nothing, of course, always works given that choices of cards is limited sometimes.

[helene_t]

The point of reverse attitude/standard count: You hold . K932. Partner's opening lead is this suit, won by dummy's ace. You play the 2. Your next signal in this suit is supposed to be count. But you must not waste the 9! So udca forces you to falsecard.

But most UDCA players give current standard count (or original UDCA count, if you like) so the correct play will be the 3 on your second turn.

 

If you started with K93 and declarer leads the suit first, UDCA players do indeed play the 9 if they want to give count.

[mmerz]

One of my partners is trying to persuade me to switch to UDCA.

 

1. Who uses it?

 

 

As you have perhaps surmised, signalling choices are something of a religious topic. And for every positive in one direction, there's probably an equivalent offset in the other.

 

If you are an intermediate(*) player trying to become advanced(*), then one non-technical argument that I like for switching around is that it forces you to focus on your signals more. And one of the things that better players do is choose and read signals better.

 

So if you want to get better at signalling, then switching signalling methods every session will exercise your brain. It might also lead to some interesting and worthwhile post-mortem discussions, if you want more of those.

 

-- M "Why did you signal with the 8!? It was the only one I had!" M

 

(*) for some definition of intermediate and advanced. I think of an advanced player as one who routinely signals and can read them. Your standards/labels may differ, but you get my point.

[Vampyr]

 

So if you want to get better at signalling, then switching signalling methods every session will exercise your brain. It might also lead to some interesting and worthwhile post-mortem discussions, if you want more of those.

 

And possibly some adverse rulings, if you want more of those.

[ruleof15]

One of my partners is trying to persuade me to switch to UDCA.

 

1. Who uses it?

2. If you don’t like, what do you prefer, and why?

3. Can someone point me to a good online UDCA primer? This is the only one I’ve found.

 

https://www.bridgebum.com/upside_down_count_attitude.php

 

Thanks.

 

D.