Ignoring the stop card

[pran]

Is the player entitled to the pause, but doesn’t have to take it?

yes.

It is illegal to call while the STOP card is exposed or when "STOP" has been said until "Continue" (or word to that effect) is subsequently said..

 

LHO is always entitled to a 10 seconds pause for considerations when STOP is compulsory, but he is free to call at any time if STOP was not used.

[blackshoe]

yes.

It is illegal to call while the STOP card is exposed or when "STOP" has been said until "Continue" (or word to that effect) is subsequently said..

 

LHO is always entitled to a 10 seconds pause for considerations when STOP is compulsory, but he is free to call at any time if STOP was not used.

That depends on where he is. In NA, there is no stop card. A skip-bidders LHO is nonetheless required to pass ten seconds before making a call, though many don't.

[Vampyr]

yes.

It is illegal to call while the STOP card is exposed or when "STOP" has been said until "Continue" (or word to that effect) is subsequently said..

 

LHO is always entitled to a 10 seconds pause for considerations when STOP is compulsory, but he is free to call at any time if STOP was not used.

 

That is really good and I wish we had that.

 

That depends on where he is. In NA, there is no stop card. A skip-bidders LHO is nonetheless required to pass ten seconds before making a call, though many don't.

 

I would definitely call when I felt like it. “Oh, was that bid a jump? I didn’t notice”. The trouble is I may well not notice it if it is an auction in which I have little interest. Placing the burden on the opponent is a bizarre concept. Eliminating Stop card and not even replacing it with an announcement, yet still expecting the opponent to take it upon herself to pause is one of the worst ideas the ACBL ever had. On a par with the Yellow Card tournaments and the way they wrecked the team of two pairs events were

[pran]

The Norwegian regulation on STOP explicitly states that LHO (to the player who should use STOP) is entitled to a pause of 10 seconds where STOP is required, regardless of whether or not STOP was used or was withdrawn prematurely.

yes.

It is illegal to call while the STOP card is exposed or when "STOP" has been said until "Continue" (or word to that effect) is subsequently said..

 

LHO is always entitled to a 10 seconds pause for considerations when STOP is compulsory, but he is free to call at any time if STOP was not used.

 

 

That depends on where he is. In NA, there is no stop card. A skip-bidders LHO is nonetheless required to pass ten seconds before making a call, though many don't.

Well, I didn't bother to repeat "The Norwegian regulation" within each of my entries in this particular thread.

[pescetom]

On a par with the Yellow Card tournaments and the way they wrecked the team of two pairs events were

How and why did they wreck the latter?

[gwnn]

That depends on where he is. In NA, there is no stop card. A skip-bidders LHO is nonetheless required to pass ten seconds before making a call, though many don't.

Why not introduce a STOP flag or even better, a STOP whistle (maybe both, the whistle just to prevent people from ignoring the flag)? 😍

[Vampyr]

How and why did they wreck the latter?

 

This was an event that was new. I had never played in it, but was eager to. It was only available at the Nationals.

 

The idea was that you had two pairs sitting in the same direction in the same matchpoint pairs competition. The better matchpoint score counted for your team.

 

Shortly after introducing this event, the ACBL changed it to the worst score counted.

 

That is the how. The why is probably that people were taking wild flyers in the event. But in the changed format it was not an interesting event at all, so it disappeared. Perhaps it was never workable in the original incarnation for the reason above, but it was an intriguing idea. And that was unusual in the ACBL, because they employ far fewer forms of scoring than other RAs. For example they do not play multiple teams (except BAM) or Swiss pairs. Also they do not, as far as I know, use the Australian movement, which is a lot quicker and more orderly for Swiss teams.

[Vampyr]

But the STOP period is intended to be for LHO's call. If they call prematurely, I can understand thinking that keeping the STOP card on the table has become pointless.

 

Quite. But of course in fact it takes pressure off your partner.

[johnu]

Why not introduce a STOP flag or even better, a STOP whistle (maybe both, the whistle just to prevent people from ignoring the flag)? 😍

Good idea. The use, or non use of the stop card allowed some pairs to have 2 sets of agreements depending on whether they used the stop card or not. A stop whistle used or not used with or without the stop card would allow 4 sets of agreements. I'm all for more scientific bidding :)

[Vampyr]

Good idea. The use, or non use of the stop card allowed some pairs to have 2 sets of agreements depending on whether they used the stop card or not. A stop whistle used or not used with or without the stop card would allow 4 sets of agreements. I'm all for more scientific bidding :)

 

Is the Stop card optional where you play? Here it is not.

[barmar]

I would definitely call when I felt like it. “Oh, was that bid a jump? I didn’t notice”. The trouble is I may well not notice it if it is an auction in which I have little interest.

Isn't that a violation of the law that says you're supposed to pay attention?

 

Why isn't the STOP card viewed as a redundant crutch? Why should we have to remind the opponent that a bid is a jump, isn't it obvious?

[sanst]

Good idea. The use, or non use of the stop card allowed some pairs to have 2 sets of agreements depending on whether they used the stop card or not. A stop whistle used or not used with or without the stop card would allow 4 sets of agreements. I'm all for more scientific bidding :)

That’s fine. And, if you bid game without jump, keep the cards in your hand with a weakish hand and put these on the table to indicate a possible slam. :P

[pescetom]

That’s fine. And, if you bid game without jump, keep the cards in your hand with a weakish hand and put these on the table to indicate a possible slam. :P

That's unscientific at best. Just close your hand, place it on the table and cover it with one finger per keycard while you stare into space :)

[pran]

Why isn't the STOP card viewed as a redundant crutch? Why should we have to remind the opponent that a bid is a jump, isn't it obvious?

The purpose of the STOP procedure is not to remind LHO that the bid is a jump.

 

It is to protect LHO against accusations of varying tempo (i.e. delaying his call) because of a need for time to decide what call to make.

 

This is also the reason why it is the jump bidder and not his LHO who should be responsible for administering the STOP period.

(Unlike as I understand the regulation is in ACBL?)

[barmar]

The purpose of the STOP procedure is not to remind LHO that the bid is a jump.

 

It is to protect LHO against accusations of varying tempo (i.e. delaying his call) because of a need for time to decide what call to make.

 

This is also the reason why it is the jump bidder and not his LHO who should be responsible for administering the STOP period.

(Unlike as I understand the regulation is in ACBL?)

Right. In ACBL, the jump bidder didn't control the timing. RHO was always supposed to pause 10 seconds, whether the STOP card was used or not. So the card only served as a reminder, not a timing mechanism.

 

Maybe if we'd been using it the way the rest of the world does, we wouldn't have needed to get rid of it.

 

OTOH, I also can't recall ever seeing someone call the TD regarding a fast pass over a jump bid. I also can't recall ever seeing a writeup of something like this in an appeal report (but the only appeal cases I ever read are the ones that get published in NABC daily bulletins, I've never purchased an appeals casebook).

[akwoo]

My partner has definitely called the TD regarding a fast bid over a weak 2.

[sanst]

I don’t know about the rest of the world, but I do know that over here more often than not the stop card is used as a obligatory and symbolic gesture, not a serious reminder for the LHO to take her or his time. You see auctions like 1♠-2♠-4♠ and there are three passes on the table before the stop card has been removed from the box. I don’t see much use in it as the players don’t observe the 10 secs and give at least the impression that they are thinking. In the example given it’s unlikely that the LHO has something to think about and the same goes for the 2♠ bidder, who has a hand with 9 HCP at most.

[pescetom]

I don’t know about the rest of the world, but I do know that over here more often than not the stop card is used as a symbol, not a serious reminder for the LHO to take her or his time. You see auctions like 1♠-2♠-4♠ and there are three passes on the table before the stop card has been removed from the box. I don’t see much use in it as the players don’t observe the 10 secs and give at least the impression that they are thinking.

 

No idea of your regulations, but ours say that the STOP card should be removed from the box and displayed BEFORE the 4♠ bid, not after. It does tend to get ignored, but at least it is there (and when not, the Director knows which pair to keep an eye on).

[mycroft]

We didn't need to get rid of it. We did get rid of it, after a massive lack of education (which led to some - interesting - old wives' tales), a half-hearted attempt at enforcement ("If you use it, you must use it all the time. It's not mandatory, but we *suggest* you use it. But don't forget, even once" (wink, wink)), and a total and utter lack of consideration of its intent by LHO. Plus a bad (as explained here) method of using the card and lack of interest (or ability, but definitely interest) in enforcing violations (of the users and their opponents).

 

We now no longer have a Stop card procedure. There is still a massive lack of education, and a total and utter lack of consideration by LHO; increase in interest in enforcing the current regulation is obvious in its silence. WeaSeL still reigns supreme over preempts, but woe betide you if you take three seconds after 1♠-3♦-4♠-(shotgunned) 5♦...

 

I understand why the ACBL did it. As one of the 2% of players who used it and used it consistently (even over 1NT-p-3NT or [5 rounds of bidding leading to]-5NT-7♠) even knowing how useless it was, it was not my preferred solution to the problem. But I follow the new regulation as well.

[Vampyr]

but woe betide you if you take three seconds after 1♠-3♦-4♠-(shotgunned) 5♦...

 

This is why I usually keep the Stop card out if LHO has bid before it is removed.

[sanst]

No idea of your regulations, but ours say that the STOP card should be removed from the box and displayed BEFORE the 4♠ bid, not after. It does tend to get ignored, but at least it is there (and when not, the Director knows which pair to keep an eye on).

The regulations are clear enough (every jump bid should be preceded by the stop card or you should say “stop”, and leave it on the table for 10 secs after you have made the call, the LHO should anyway wait for ten secs before making his call), but these are just not followed. Most players don’t care, at least not enough to call the TD, and you would probably be considered a fanatical kind of SB if you do. You might even be refused membership of some clubs or asked to leave. And frankly, I don’t think the average director at a club, who is usually playing too, would be pleased if called, provided there’s no UI problem.

[gwnn]

An unrelated question, is it OK to never use the stop card for "obvious signoff bids" bids like:

1S-2S

4S

 

1NT-3NT

 

1m-1M

1NT-3NT

 

? Once in 100 boards, my LHO will think about making a lead-directing double (if they're even on lead) and that will help them on defence, I'm fine with that and I realise I waived my rights. On the other 99 boards, we will have saved 10 seconds and will put it to better use.

 

What I do right now is use the stop card out of inertia about 50% of the time and remember not to use it 50% of the time. Is that also fine? It's not like I can give UI to a partner who is going to declare or become dummy in a second 99.9% of the time?

 

(I am definitely not talking about 1S-4S or 2S-4S or similar, and also not about jumps to slam where lead-directing doubles are more common.)

[pran]

......... after a massive lack of education .........

You have a point here:

Very early Directors in Norway were encouraged to enforce the STOP regulation by dismissing any claim on BIT (hesitation) after a skip bid unless STOP was used.

 

In fact our first question on such claims was (and still is): "Was STOP used?".

If the answer was "no" then we immediately dismissed the claim.

 

This (together with the fact that the skip bidder alone is responsible for administering "STOP") has resulted in a general respect for the STOP regulation here.

[sanst]

You have a point here:

Very early Directors in Norway were encouraged to enforce the STOP regulation by dismissing any claim on BIT (hesitation) after a skip bid unless STOP was used.

 

In fact our first question on such claims was (and still is): "Was STOP used?".

If the answer was "no" then we immediately dismissed the claim.

 

This (together with the fact that the skip bidder alone is responsible for administering "STOP") has resulted in a general respect for the STOP regulation here.

So you ignored part of the laws, i.e. to answer the question whether UI was used, to enforce a local regulation. Maybe effective, but not legal.

[pran]

So you ignored part of the laws, i.e. to answer the question whether UI was used, to enforce a local regulation. Maybe effective, but not legal.

There was no UI because there was no evidence of BIT.