Third seat preempt

[AL78]

Third seat preempts can be fast and loose (i.e. undisciplined), here is an example where it went horribly wrong:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=skt652ht643dak7c6&w=s94hkjdjt9532ck53&n=saj83ha9752dc8742&e=sq7hq8dq864caqjt9&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=pp2h3c3h4cppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Not a success. We got it three off but we have a cold game in either major which five out of eight pairs found. 31%.

[apollo1201]

The least we can say is that S is very timid. Probably half of the S’opened, and the raise to 3H is not good bridge, unless partner is used to open any 5-cd suit with 4HCP at green.

[FelicityR]

Never open a pre-empt with four cards in a side suit major is a rule that has gone out of fashion. But...

 

...with two aces I would pass as North. North's hand has a bit too much about it to even consider a pre-empt, especially one in a poor suit.

[Tramticket]

Probably half of the S’opened

 

I would expect 95% of the field to open as South, with both majors and an easy rebid. If I failed to open, I would jump to 4 with an expected 10-card fit and a complete maximum.

[DozyDom]

Never open a pre-empt with four cards in a side suit major is a rule that has gone out of fashion. But...

 

...with two aces I would pass as North. North's hand has a bit too much about it to even consider a pre-empt, especially one in a poor suit.

With two Aces, both majors, and a void, you would pass as N? 2H is taking a very bold position. Pass, I feel, is rather bolder.

[AL78]

With two Aces, both majors, and a void, you would pass as N? 2H is taking a very bold position. Pass, I feel, is rather bolder.

 

I can see his point that the two aces increase the defensive potential of the hand, and the lack of a sixth heart reduces the offense.

 

I took a gamble that 4th seat held a big hand and was aiming to make it a bit harder for them. In the event, the reason for the first two passes is because the HCP count is fairly evenly distributed around the table, so East does not hold a big hand. In the past I have tended not to pre-empt when holding the other major, this hand reminded me why.

 

I was surprised my partner didn't raise straight to game with four card support, two quick tricks and a singleton.

[DozyDom]

I can see his point that the two aces increase the defensive potential of the hand, and the lack of a sixth heart reduces the offense.

 

I took a gamble that 4th seat held a big hand and was aiming to make it a bit harder for them. In the event, the reason for the first two passes is because the HCP count is fairly evenly distributed around the table, so East does not hold a big hand. In the past I have tended not to pre-empt when holding the other major, this hand reminded me why.

 

I was surprised my partner didn't raise straight to game with four card support, two quick tricks and a singleton.

I... wouldn't open 2H, and I should have made that clear. I would open 1H, just as I would opposite an unpassed hand. This hand has no business pre-empting, so don't. It has no business passing, so don't. It's just a normal, fairly light 1-level open. Partner will take you to game in a major as soon as they find out about the double fit, and possibly before.

[pescetom]

Never open a pre-empt with four cards in a side suit major is a rule that has gone out of fashion. But...

 

...with two aces I would pass as North. North's hand has a bit too much about it to even consider a pre-empt, especially one in a poor suit.

 

Probably you are being over diplomatic. North's bid seems unwise however you look at it. And while there are some that ignore the 4cM rule always or on occasion, I suspect it still has a majority of adherents.

[TylerE]

N should open 1, not 2.

[FelicityR]

With two Aces, both majors, and a void, you would pass as N? 2H is taking a very bold position. Pass, I feel, is rather bolder.

 

A few commentators have suggested opening 1♥ here, but even I disagree with that because what do you then bid over a 2♦ response by your partner? The high card points could be evenly distributed around the board as they (to some extent) actually are. Over partner's 2♦ response do you bid 2♥? So you're back to square one.

 

I'm the first to make an aggressive pre-empt in third at favourable or equal vulnerability, or a light level opening one bid, but you should always plan ahead. If the major suits were swapped 5♠/4♥ I would open 1♠.

[TylerE]

A few commentators have suggested opening 1♥ here, but even I disagree with that because what do you then bid over a 2♦ response by your partner? The high card points could be evenly distributed around the board as they (to some extent) actually are. Over partner's 2♦ response do you bid 2♥? So you're back to square one.

 

No, I'm not, because I play drury. Passed hand natural 2m does not exist.

[DozyDom]

A few commentators have suggested opening 1♥ here, but even I disagree with that because what do you then bid over a 2♦ response by your partner? The high card points could be evenly distributed around the board as they (to some extent) actually are. Over partner's 2♦ response do you bid 2♥? So you're back to square one.

 

I'm the first to make an aggressive pre-empt in third at favourable or equal vulnerability, or a light level opening one bid, but you should always plan ahead. If the major suits were swapped 5♠/4♥ I would open 1♠.

I rebid 2H, and I am back to square one except that partner now knows my strength more accurately; I rate to make imo, so that's better than passing and no worse than opening 2H. But if partner responds 1S, or doubles interference from LHO, I am in a far, far better position than a 2H opener; if RHO makes any action at all I am (or rather, my partner is) in an infinitely better position than anyone who passes to open.

 

I don't see why I would pass this in first seat, and I can't think of a hand I'd open in first that I wouldn't open in 3rd.

[fluff]

1♥ is clear in 3rd seat. We play 2 way Drury, no problem with 2♦ response which shows 4 trumps.

2♠​ response by partner who passed is Fit showing jump, so we wld reach game in 3 bids.

cheers

[AL78]

1♥ is clear in 3rd seat. We play 2 way Drury, no problem with 2♦ response which shows 4 trumps.

2♠​ response by partner who passed is Fit showing jump, so we wld reach game in 3 bids.

cheers

 

I don't play Drury. I wouldn't say opening 1♥ is clear, I've opened at the one level before with the same strength and 5-5 shape, and it didn't go well, I have also passed when I should have opened. It is only obvious when it works :P , it works here because there is a massive double fit.

[dsLawsd]

A fascinating hand showing that matchpoints is a unique game.

1♥seems rather normal as the field figures not to pass.

I think that I would open 1♣ as I have an answer for each and

every likely followup!

 

on the actual 2♥ opener try bidding 3♠ not 3 hearts?

After all you do have a likely 10 card fit.

A simulation program would be interesting to run.

[miamijd]

A lot of interesting comments on this thread, several of which make no sense to me:

 

1. I don't see why anyone would open 1S as South unless they played a big club. The suits are awful. Put the AK in hearts instead of diamonds and give me a couple of intermediate spots in spades, and it's a different story.

 

2. I don't see why one would open 2H in third seat as North. That's a great way to miss a game. If partner fits you in either major, you actually have a good hand. Just open 1H in third seat and hope partner doesn't bid 2D.

 

3. I can't see why South would bid only 3H. He has a big hand given the bidding, and his side has at least 10 trump (well, they should). Don't you want to bid 4H over 4C? Sure you do. So bid it now.

 

4. I would X 4C as North in MPs, but I can understand the pass, I guess.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[EddyHaskel]

K and R says south is worth 13.8.

10% may not have opened it, but they should have.

[ahydra]

Passing the S hand is understandable - it is very close to an opening bid, with both majors and no rebid issue, but one has to draw the line somewhere to avoid 2NT-3 when partner holds a misfitting 11.

 

North's 2H is a complete misdescription. The hand has far too much playing strength and defensive strength for a third-seat pre-empt. Opening 1H seems clear.

 

South's raise to only 3H is understandable if allowing for partner's pre-empt to be very frivolous in 3rd - though bidding 4H is probably still correct, particularly when NV:

- the KS is probably onside

- shortage in opponent's suit allowing partner to ruff in the short hand

- at least a 9-card fit, probably 10

- if 3H was making but 4H gets doubled and -1, it's still good vs 3C making EW

- 4H may force opps into a misguess (they might try 5C if they had some of North's values).

 

But South would not have faced this problem if North hadn't opened at the wrong level. :(

 

ahydra

[msjennifer]

SIRS,if the partnership is playing Precision then SOUTH has an easy 1S opening since the system uses a forcing 1NT response when holding 8-15 HCP (1).However playing a standard system it is a borderline opening hand. Assuming S passes then N does not have a hand worth opening 2H. (unless they are playing GARBAGE weak 2 D/H/S openings.).An 1H opening is far better if N insists on opening at all.(2)Souths 3H raise is an ill thought one. His hand deserves to bid 3C (modified Drury). If playing garbage 2's(3)South considering his fantastic working points PLUS a singleton has a clear cut bid of 4H. when N opens the bidding 2H.The spade suit can be established with so many entries to the hand depending upon Norths holding in that suit.

[Tramticket]

1. I don't see why anyone would open 1S as South unless they played a big club. The suits are awful. Put the AK in hearts instead of diamonds and give me a couple of intermediate spots in spades, and it's a different story.

 

The hand is far from perfect and we would prefer to have our points in our long suits. But KTXXX is not the worst suit you will have opened and the 5431 shape is attractive. You have two tens to bolster your seven-loser 10-count and the suit order makes for a comfortable rebid. If you don't open now you may be faced with a difficult problem later - opening bids don't guarantee suit quality, but over-calls do suggest a good quality suit.

 

I don't play a big club, but I do play Acol which has a long tradition of light openings. I would expect to be in good company opening the South hand.

 

 

EDIT: I started a poll on Bridgewinners: Bridge Winners Poll

[AL78]

opening bids don't guarantee suit quality, but over-calls do suggest a good quality suit.

 

Interesting you should say that, because I have seen expert players advocating overcalling at the one level on all sorts of rubbish, like Jxxxx.

[Tramticket]

Interesting you should say that, because I have seen expert players advocating overcalling at the one level on all sorts of rubbish, like Jxxxx.

 

Over-calling is very different from opening the bidding and your objectives can be different. I'm not saying that I wouldn't over-call on JXXXX - but I would need a good reason to over-call on that suit.

 

I will take an over-call as a good reason to lead a suit. If there were a more attractive lead, I might not lead the suit that partner opened.

[ruleof15]

Third seat preempts can be fast and loose (i.e. undisciplined), here is an example where it went horribly wrong:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=skt652ht643dak7c6&w=s94hkjdjt9532ck53&n=saj83ha9752dc8742&e=sq7hq8dq864caqjt9&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=pp2h3c3h4cppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Not a success. We got it three off but we have a cold game in either major which five out of eight pairs found. 31%.

[ruleof15]

The suggestions of not preempting when holding a 4+card major or a void was not drawn from a hat. It is a percentage recommendation. Bridge is a percentage game. When you go against the percentages, take what you get. As my name implies, i open only hands meeting the Rule of 15. If you have never seen this system work, please don't remark. Had south opened, there wold be no discussion. You are welcome to watch how it works as a kib or partner.

[Tramticket]

The hand is far from perfect and we would prefer to have our points in our long suits. But KTXXX is not the worst suit you will have opened and the 5431 shape is attractive. You have two tens to bolster your seven-loser 10-count and the suit order makes for a comfortable rebid. If you don't open now you may be faced with a difficult problem later - opening bids don't guarantee suit quality, but over-calls do suggest a good quality suit.

 

I don't play a big club, but I do play Acol which has a long tradition of light openings. I would expect to be in good company opening the South hand.

 

 

EDIT: I started a poll on Bridgewinners: Bridge Winners Poll

 

I seem to hold a minority view and Miamjid was more in tune with Bridgewinners responders at least.