2C-2H double negative follow-ups

[gwnn]

Assuming you play

2♣ - 2♥ as 0-4, double negative artificial, how do you play opener's 2♠/3♣/3♦/3♥ rebids?

 

Please don't say "it depends on what you open 2♣ with" -- obviously what you open 2♣ with depends on the agreement here as well so we'd start an infinite loop of back-questions.

 

(edit: FWIW I just lazily chose the middle ground - responder promises 1 more bid, whatever opener does, except for the 22-24 2NT. I'm not sure this is the best way, hence the poll.)

[helene_t]

After 2♠ we can still stop in 3♠, and maybe we can also stop in 4m in some auctions although I think I prefer to play 4m as always forcing.

[FelicityR]

Please don't say "it depends on what you open 2♣ with" -- obviously what you open 2♣ with depends on the agreement here as well so we'd start an infinite loop of back-questions.

 

There shouldn't be any discussion on what anyone opens 2♣ with as Standard American defines it as a "trick [or so] short of game", and that's why 2♣ is not seen as unconditionally game forcing in SAYC, with the option of stopping in 3M or 4m.

 

Taking away opener's rebid of 2♥ by using a 2♥ artificial double negative bid by responder does take away using the Kokish convention - which is an asset to 2♣ opening bidding, I feel. However, a 2♥ negative does allow opener and responder more room to explore hands where 5+ HCPs opposite a 2♣ opener will result in a slam being bid.

 

I think that it is should be easy enough for opener to define their own hand after a 2♥ negative, through either the Losing Trick Count or as a trick taking hand, and to bid accordingly on the second round. With a ♥ orientated hand with 8 and 1/2 (an absolute minimum) or 9 tricks I would bid 3♥. With 9 and 1/2 tricks I would gamble on 4♥.

 

The only problem, I see, using the 2♥ negative is where you have a two suited hand with ♥s and another suit. You are then limited on space describing your hand, and the second suit could be lost in the bidding.

[fromageGB]

... using the 2♥ negative is where you have a two suited hand with ♥s and another suit...

Hearts and a minor. With both majors you rebid 2♠(forcing) followed by 3♥(non-forcing).

[pescetom]

Hearts and a minor. With both majors you rebid 2♠(forcing) followed by 3♥(non-forcing).

Or hearts longer than spades.

 

But my biggest reserve about 2♥ red flag would be the loss of jump bid 3♥ when holding a game force plus single suiter.

[blackshoe]

There shouldn't be any discussion on what anyone opens 2♣ with as Standard American defines it as a "trick [or so] short of game"…

What if they're not playing Standard American?