responses to 2c open - strong

[phoenixmj]

My partner and I have been using the following responses to a strong 2c open. This assumes no interference for the moment.

 

2 Diamonds - is a waiting bid. Says nothing about diamonds. It is either fewer than 8 point or more than 8 points WITHOUT a GOOD five card suit (2 of top3 or 3 of top 5).

 

After responder bids 2D - opener rebid is either their suit or notrump (2 nt shows 22-24 points and 3nt shows more)

 

After the opener rebid, the responder rebid responder can show fewer than 3 points by bidding the cheaper minor (or 3NT is opener's rebid is 3D).

 

 

Now - the other day we had a hand where i opened 2 clubs and my partner responded 3 clubs. This showed 8 plus points and a good 5+ club suit. This illustrates a problem with our system since my first opener rebid was 3 pades - already at the top of the three level. My partner had 2 spades, but chose to say 4 clubs (with 5 clubs but they were solid). This left me struggling with a bid - as I have a singleton club and "only" 6 spades. I pictured my partner's hand as being strong in clubs with about 7 of them, and a spade void. We were already past 3NT - and if I bid 4NT my partner would likely not think I wanted to play 4 NT. We wound up playing 5 clubs - for a bottom board since everyone else was in spades. And interestingly, 6 NT makes but only 5 spades makes.

 

Afterwards, discussing this hand, it was suggested to me that we change the system we use and that people now bid 2H to show a bust and otherwise, bid 2D waiting regardless of their hand.

 

Further reading brings me to a middle road of 2h to show a bust, 2D waiting, but still bid a GOOD 5+ card suit with 8 or more points.

 

Another avenue is bidding controls.

 

None of these systems work all the time. So I am wondering if my partnership agreement should stick to what we are doing as long as responder never bids above 2 spades. With a really strong hand in the minors, responder can bid after opener rebid and it will obviously be a forcing bid at that point.

 

My question -

What do you think is the best approach responding to 2 clubs? We have had reasonbly good success with out system, but a hand like this points out the flaws.

 

Thanks in advance.

[akwoo]

I prefer the system you play.

 

I haven't seen your partner's hand, but I have a feeling their second bid should have been 3N. From their point of view it's entirely possible that it's the last making game.

 

It's probably best to have some artificiality after 2♣-3♣ if responder ever responds 3♣ with a 4 card major.

 

Also, with a balanced hand, it's probably best to bid 2♦ over 2♣ even if you could make a 3m positive response.

[steve2005]

I prefer the system you play.

 

I haven't seen your partner's hand, but I have a feeling their second bid should have been 3N.

Also, with a balanced hand, it's probably best to bid 2♦ over 2♣ even if you could make a 3m positive response.

I too like your system. Using 2♥ as bust causes problems with strong heart hands.

 

Bidding past 3NT and rebidding 4♣ on a 5-card suit which has already been shown is where the problem is!

[pescetom]

I too dislike the use of 2♥ as bust, middle of road or no.

But I also dislike the idea of responding with a good 5-card minor, let alone rebidding it.

I suggest 3m should be 6+card as it is precious to let opener rebid at 2-level whenever possible.

[FelicityR]

I too dislike the use of 2♥ as bust, middle of road or no.

But I also dislike the idea of responding with a good 5-card minor, let alone rebidding it.

I suggest 3m should be 6+card as it is precious to let opener rebid at 2-level whenever possible.

 

I agree with this method. If the bidding goes 2♣ - 2♦(waiting) - 2♥/2♠ there is the option of having 2NT as showing a bust, although this will occasionally wrong side a contract. 3♣/3♦ by responder is then an option after a rebid of 2♥/2♠ to show some values.

 

Edit: You can also incorporate the Kokish convention into this sequence, too. Responder having to automatically bid 2♠ after a 2♥ rebid by opener

[danhputnam]

I do prefer the 2 heart bid as a bust. I despise it when partner refuses to share information, which is what the double negative essentially does. More importantly, though is the 2 diamond bid, which should not deny a strong hand. As often as possible you should let opener complete his compound opening bid. 2 spades is OK with a good 5-card suit and strength, but anything at the three-level should promise 6. 2NT should have both strength and tenaces. And anything other than 2D or a 2H bust bid should promise some slam interest if we find a fit.

[sarad]

In my yoth I used to play 2C=Albarran's convension after weak hand has to bid 2D=negative or show ace/s (colour-range-melange)

but now I use: 2D=0-2 controls (A=2, K=1 control), so if your partner responsed 3C = means 3+ controls and 5+ clubs.

[kladenak]

I play the same system as you and I like it. Recently I bought Eric Rodwell's Bidding Topics Book 2 in which he handles the 2C opening (and he actually proposes this system). I will paraphrase just two of his comments which are in line with what others have said:

 

1) Responding positively 3C or 3D should be confined to one-suited hands, solid suit, 6+ cards, as it is so much preemptive.

 

2) Another point I found interesting, perhaps not 100% related, is that a positive response should only be made on hands where it is possible to visualize playing in slam if opener has a good fit: having two honours of the top three may not be enough. In other words, there should be some shape as well. And one should think twice even fulfilling this criterion if responder's suit is spades as again it drives the opener with hearts to level 3.

[pescetom]

2) Another point I found interesting, perhaps not 100% related, is that a positive response should only be made on hands where it is possible to visualize playing in slam if opener has a good fit: having two honours of the top three may not be enough. In other words, there should be some shape as well. And one should think twice even fulfilling this criterion if responder's suit is spades as again it drives the opener with hearts to level 3.

I agree.

Also, if you play a low (say 20-21) 2NT opening, then a lot of 2♣ opening hands will redeclare 2NT and then you can transfer your shapeless spades anyway.

[barmar]

My regular club partner and I go against the grain, and respond in a suit immediately with a weak hand and a long suit -- the kind of hand that would make a weak jump shift to an opening bid -- and opener can pass it with no fit. Our theory is that if responder has a bust, you just want to play safely in their suit. Other than that, we use 2♦ for positive hands (at least 1 A/K or 2 supported queens) and 2♥ for a balanced bust.

 

But I can't remember the last time this came up (if ever), and he's gotten so forgetful lately that I wonder if he'll remember that's what we play if it ever does.

[Zelandakh]

One easy way of tagging a 2♥ bust response onto the system described in the OP is to make a 2NT response the positive with hearts. Transfers are naturally also perfectly possible. Both of these methods can be played with the 2♠-3♦ calls as pure positives (meaning semi-positives go through 2♦) or as semi-positives (meaning good hands go through 2♦ even when holding a good suit).

 

In addition, an alternative that some pairs play is to up the requirements for a 3m response to a good 6 card suit rather than merely a 5-bagger. In any of these methods, it is almost always wrong for Responder to rebid a 5 card minor and that was probably one of the main issues on the hand described.

 

Finally, 4NT in a no-fit auction of this type should not be Blackwood and it is often necessary, and nearly always safe, after a 2♣ opening and positive response to use as a last port of call. It seems likely that had 4NT been bid by either of you with that agreement in place that you would have scored reasonably on the hand. That is probably much more important for you and your partner to take away from the hand than the specific system of responses being used.

[mikeh]

I am a big fan of 2H immediate negative, and suspect that those who dislike it haven't played it much. As a matter of bidding theory, having to use 2 calls, as responder, to tell opener that one has nothing is very bad indeed.

 

2C 2D 2S 3C negative. Opener can't pass (he shouldn't anyway, since 2C should be forcing to 3M at the very least) so maybe he bids 3S with his 6331/6322 and now responder has a long minor...can he afford to bid 4m here? With say x xxx Jxxxxxx Qx: partner has bid impeccably with AKQxxx Ax AKx Kx

 

Even on a heart lead, I want to be in 6D. But when partner has AQJxxx AKx Ax Ax, I'd prefer to be in 3S

 

Playing 2H negative leads to 2C 2H 2S 3D...and now opener on the first hand can almost drive to slam.

 

Now, 2H does preempt the auction somewhat. If opener has hearts, he has to bid either 2N (my choice with balanced 22-23 hcp and 5 hearts) or 3H...and 3H has to be played as forcing, since otherwise really big hands, with hearts, become very difficult to bid. Note, however, that opener is already aware that responder has no Ace or King, so it is very unlikely that one will ever get too high.

 

One consequence is that one probably wants to play 2C, with hearts, with a higher minimum than with spades...with spades one can stop in 3S opposite a bust, but not in hearts.

 

These days almost all good players stretch to respond to 1 level opening bids, so it would be rare, in such partnerships, for 1H to be passed out and game have good play.

 

In reality, having played this method for some 30 years, I do not recall ever missing a game or slam because of this style (at least not one that has decent play).

 

The other cost is that responder can't bid 2H to show a good suit with a positive response. The cost of this is modest, but how modest depends on style.

 

In my serious partnerships, we reserve a positive suit response for a simple hand...no side 4 card suit...and no more than one A/K outside of the suit shown. All interesting hands, so ones with shape or ones with significant extras, bid 2D.

 

Opener will hold a strong balanced hand more frequently than any other hand type, and all good pairs have good methods over a 2N rebid (and many play a form of Kokish as well), so 'get out of his way' is a very useful mantra. Stop preempting the big hand....give it maximal space to be shown.

 

So how do we show hearts as responder, when we have such a hand?

 

I used to play that 2N showed a positive in hearts, but in recent years have adopted a method that Fred Gitelman wrote about. 2D gf waiting, 2H negative, 2S balanced 8-11, no 5 card major, may have a 5 card minor if 5332, 2N as either major.....opener bids 3C to enquire (or with clubs, which is relatively rare) and responder transfers into his major.

 

This method calls for a fair amount of memory work, so I'd only recommend it for a steady partnership. 2N as hearts served me well for 20 years:)

 

Bidding space in strong auctions is at a premium, especially when one loses the entire 1-level with the 2C call, and bearing in mind that a common destination is 3N, so taking 2 calls as responder to limit the hand, when 2H immediate negative does it in one, makes no sense to me.

 

Finally, look at 2C 2D 3D...always a problem hand for any method, but how do the 'cheaper minor 2nd negative' crew handle this?

[bluenikki]

When responder has a fair 6-card minor, it is a live possibility as a strain for slam. Indeed, for entry reasons, it may be the only slam strain.

 

So it is vital that the follow-up structure not bury responder's suit. Note that it is far more important for opener to know AJxxxx is opposite than to know KQxxx is opposite.

[nige1]

John Matheson recommends control responses with a 2♥ Kokish rebid.

i.e. In response to a 2♣ opener ...

• 2♦ = 0-1 controls (A = 2, K = 1).
• 2♥ = 2 controls (A or 2 Ks).
• 2♠ = 3 controls (A and K).
• 2N = 3 controls (precisely 3 Ks).
• 3♣ = 4 controls.

I prefer the Kokish variant, where 2♥ is weaker than 2N, when balanced

i.e. after 2♣ - 2♦ - ??

• 2♥ = NAT or BAL 22-23.
• 2N = BAL 24+.
• Other rebids = NAT.

This sometimes allows the partnership to subside in 3 of a minor

i.e. after 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥ - ??

• 2♠ = ART normal relay (with 22-23 BAL, opener rebids 2N. Other rebids are NAT with ♥).
• 2N = ART weak with 55 in minors.
• 3m = NAT weak with 6+ card-suit (e.g. ♠ x x x ♥ x ♦ x x ♣ J x x x x x x x).

[igt3]

My partner and me are playing 2♣-opening as either game forcing or 20-21NT (with 22-24 we open 2NT) so we don´t think we need a negative or second negative response.

So our resopnses then are: 2♦=waiting, 2♥/♠=to play vs 20-21, 2NT=both minors, 3♣/♦=to play vs 20-21.

 

Ace-responses or control showing I have a problem with. Played that a couple of times, but we were already at the 3rd level having no idea of any fit.

 

Can recommend Roy Hughes - Building a bidding system. Lots of good ideas and tips on efficient bidding. Colours first for instance.

[gwnn]

A fairly simple method is...

 

2C-?

 

2D = GF (not bust)

2H = bust (0-3 or so)

2S = 8-10 balanced (no 5cM; could have 5cm). You can play Stayman or 4-card transfers after opener's 2NT rebid.

2NT = 5-5 majors (or some other extreme hand)

3m/3M = 6+ suit, 2 top 3.

 

The only way to stop under game is:

2C-2H

2NT-pass.

 

Every now and then you'll be too high when opener opens 2C "light", but at least you know what is forcing and what is not. And I'm not prepared to give up on the idea of responder being able to finally show a suit (on the 3 level no less!) for a second negative randomly later.

 

An important question is how you bid strong hands with a minor. You can either do it this way:

2C-2D

3C-3D* ("stayman")

 

2C-2D

3D = diamonds, no 4cM

3M = 5 diamonds, 4cM

 

which is OK, or, if you play Multi:

 

2C-2D

3C = clubs with a 4cM

3D = clubs without a 4cM.

 

2D*-2M

3C = diamonds with a 4cM

3D = diamonds without a 4cM.

 

PS: 2C structures are, generally speaking, overrated. If you want precision with strong vs weak hands, then you should play, um, Precision (coming with its own problems of course). I think more important is to have a general idea of what you play and to make sure you know what is forcing and how high.

[bluenikki]

A fairly simple method is...

 

2C-?

 

2D = GF (not bust)

2H = bust (0-3 or so)

2S = 8-10 balanced (no 5cM; could have 5cm). You can play Stayman or 4-card transfers after opener's 2NT rebid.

2NT = 5-5 majors (or some other extreme hand)

3m/3M = 6+ suit, 2 top 3.

 

And if you have AJxxxx plus values, when do you get to show them?

[Winstonm]

The best approach to 2C forcing is to not play it! B-)

 

 

2C forcing takes up a LOT of bidding room. Therefore, decisions must be made when constructing the system. I would advise as much as possible to incorporate semi-balanced hands and 4441 hands into a NT bid.

 

My basic philosophy about 2C is that the 2C opener isn't looking for your suit so don't bid it. The 2C opener will have most of the time either: a powerful single-suiter (6+ cards), a big NT, or a powerful 2 suiter.

 

The best way to utilize space is to use an automatic 2D relay: 2C-2D-(automatic): this allows the big hand to describe itself.

A 2H bid shows a hand that will pass the next bid from opener.

 

 

After that, it can get dicey, and you have to decide how complex and artificial of system you want to play. Accuracy and simplicity are not compatible.

[GrahamJson]

I prefer a flexible style of response where 2D is negative but could have fair values if a positive response looks like it would take you too high too quickly. This tends to mean that a 2H response can be made on very limited values whilst 2 of a minor requires a good hand.(unless you have an easy rebid over openers rebid).

[GrahamJson]

3 of a minor I meant.

[GrahamJson]

3 of a minor I meant.

[blackshoe]

I play the same system as you and I like it. Recently I bought Eric Rodwell's Bidding Topics Book 2 in which he handles the 2C opening (and he actually proposes this system). I will paraphrase just two of his comments which are in line with what others have said:

 

1) Responding positively 3C or 3D should be confined to one-suited hands, solid suit, 6+ cards, as it is so much preemptive.

 

2) Another point I found interesting, perhaps not 100% related, is that a positive response should only be made on hands where it is possible to visualize playing in slam if opener has a good fit: having two honours of the top three may not be enough. In other words, there should be some shape as well. And one should think twice even fulfilling this criterion if responder's suit is spades as again it drives the opener with hearts to level 3.

Rosenkranz solves the minor suit problem at least partially by have more strong opening bids. In his methods, 2!C would be opened with a primary major suit or primary clubs (maybe a second suit), and 2!D would be opened with primary diamonds. There are balanced hand options for both openings. With a single suited minor oriented hand, in both cases opener's planned rebid is 3!D, and with a two suited hand the rebid is 3!C, after which responder can ask for the second suit with 3!D.

[gwnn]

And if you have AJxxxx plus values, when do you get to show them?

You either respond 2D and wait your turn or you agree that bidding 3x shows 2 out of the top 4 or 5 :) There's an obvious tradeoff. But responder should err on the side of bidding 2♦ when in doubt, IMHO.

[fromageGB]

I think Mikeh's comment on 2♥ is right. My choice of method that works well is to have 2♦ response as definitively at least one ace or king, and 2♥ denies that. (Forget long responder suits for the moment.) Now while 3 hcp may be sufficient for a 2♦ bid, a 2♥ bid can be made with a number of QJs, so it is not necessarily bust, and can show this later. The key thing in slams is controls, and this is the basis for fit developments.

 

Over 2♦ opener bids his suit GF, or his 5+ card major if 2-suited, spades if both. (We use a 2♦ open inter alia for 3-suited hands.)

Responder bids the next step to deny 3-card support, and now opener can try a second suit if any.

With 3 card support responder skips the first step and bids steps equal to the number of ace/kings, so over 2♠, 3♦ is two ace/kings. A relay asks for extra values essentially shown by suit or denied with trumps. As the number of ace/kings are known, opener has the advantage of perhaps knowing there is no point in looking for slam, and if he does ask for aces, then he instantly knows how many kings there are, and again can decide to go no further.

After a second suit has been shown at the 3-level following an initial step1 denial, it is initially assumed to be trumps and all steps show ace/king numbers.

 

If responder has a 6+ card suit he wants to bid, he replies to 2♣ by bidding 2♠/3♣♦♥ as a transfer. Opener can accept that as trumps by completing the transfer, then responder bids ace/king steps, but with any other bid he prefers to play in his suit (responder then steps).

 

The method is simple and useful. After a 2♥ ace/king denial, we prefer any 3-level opener bid to be passable.

[helene_t]

2C-?

 

2D = GF (not bust)

2H = bust (0-3 or so)

2S = 8-10 balanced (no 5cM; could have 5cm). You can play Stayman or 4-card transfers after opener's 2NT rebid.

2NT = 5-5 majors (or some other extreme hand)

3m/3M = 6+ suit, 2 top 3.

So a positive hand can show shape with a long minor and if it is balanced, but not with a major?

 

I suppose you will have methods to show you major afterwards, then, for example Jacoby/Smolen transfers if opener rebids 2NT. But what about

2♣-2♦

3♦-3♥

Does this show 5?