Transwomen in bridge

[Cyberyeti]

I'm involved in a discussion on a cricket FB group about this and it occurred to me that I didn't know how bridge handled it.

 

So I and a group of friends who are decent county players but not international stars in the mens game decide to start identifying as female and turning up at womens events.

 

Is there a policy on this at world level ? and have various ROs considered it ?

 

Cricket in the UK allows anybody who identifies as female to play domestically but there are testosterone tests in the international game. I guess that will last until a 6 foot 9 extremely fast bowler turns up in the domestic game.

[PeterAlan]

EBU has a policy document, here.

[Cyberyeti]

EBU has a policy document, here.

 

Interesting that WBF don't (or didn't then)

[PeterAlan]

Interesting that WBF don't (or didn't then)

I don't know whether it has anything to do with the reason for this, but a national RA has the advantage of working within a single national legal framework and culture.

[pescetom]

EBU has a policy document, here.

 

Amusing that HM Revenues and Customs does not recognise bridge as a sport but the Department for Culture, Media and Sport does (or did).

[hrothgar]

I'm involved in a discussion on a cricket FB group about this and it occurred to me that I didn't know how bridge handled it.

 

So I and a group of friends who are decent county players but not international stars in the men's game decide to start identifying as female and turning up at women's events.

 

 

Based on the way in which you are phrasing the question, my assumption is that your primary purpose in doing so is some combination of

 

1. Mocking a very real issue that legitimate transgender individuals grapple with every day

2. Attempting to assuage your egos by winning event that you don't legitimately qualify for

 

Personally, I think that you should be allowed to compete in these events.

I don't think that the EBL should take a position on this topic.

 

At the same time, I think that bridge players should actively seek to ruin your lives...

You'd be acting like a first rate asshole and should be treated as such

 

(The best case scenario is that you are deliberately violating the Conditions of Contest in order to improve your chances of winning an event. In my mind this constitutes cheating. I don't think that it would be worth the time / effort to try such as case, however, I think that bridge players should treat you as cheats. If, instead, your purpose is to further marginalize and mock a group of people who already deal with intense social stigma... Well I consider this far far worse than cheating a card game. I know how the company that I currently work for as well as the one I left a few years back deal with these sorts of issues)

[FelicityR]

I think that when you retire to the bar and start drinking pints of beer the game might be up :)

 

But in all seriousness, having worked for the NHS previously, gender identify is difficult to clarify. There's a big difference between simple cross-dressing to full gender reassignment. Most transgender people end up somewhere in between. That doesn't include people who describe themselves as 'non-binary' either. Where would they fit into this?

 

I expect that bridge, just like cricket, would accept someone who identifies as female at a domestic level until such time as they start winning regularly when probably some bridge authority such as the EBU will have to clarify to what degree that person is transgender.

 

In medical terms, people who have started regular hormone therapy, and/or have had sex or gender reassignment surgery would automatically be considered transgender from then on.

[PeterAlan]

I expect that bridge, just like cricket, would accept someone who identifies as female at a domestic level until such time as they start winning regularly when probably some bridge authority such as the EBU will have to clarify to what degree that person is transgender.

On this detail, Felicity, I'm sure that the EBU does not intend to involve itself in "clarify[ing] to what degree that person is transgender", as you'll see from the policy I linked above.

[pescetom]

I think that part of the problem here is the unwillingess of bridge to decide whether or not female gender is a significant disadvantage in competition. I have significant experience in athletics which is clearly struggling with the problem of female gender, but there everyone does at least have clear that a female is at a disadvantage to a male. In bridge this does not seem to be clearly established, and therefore one might wonder why there is gender distinction in the first place. Even if a performance distinction was to be recognised, it would presumably not be directly linked to high testosterone levels, so it might be necessary to identify other male characteristics which are correlated with mind game performance.

[eagles123]

Based on the way in which you are phrasing the question, my assumption is that your primary purpose in doing so is some combination of

 

1. Mocking a very real issue that legitimate transgender individuals grapple with every day

2. Attempting to assuage your egos by winning event that you don't legitimately qualify for

 

Personally, I think that you should be allowed to compete in these events.

I don't think that the EBL should take a position on this topic.

 

At the same time, I think that bridge players should actively seek to ruin your lives...

You'd be acting like a first rate asshole and should be treated as such

 

(The best case scenario is that you are deliberately violating the Conditions of Contest in order to improve your chances of winning an event. In my mind this constitutes cheating. I don't think that it would be worth the time / effort to try such as case, however, I think that bridge players should treat you as cheats. If, instead, your purpose is to further marginalize and mock a group of people who already deal with intense social stigma... Well I consider this far far worse than cheating a card game. I know how the company that I currently work for as well as the one I left a few years back deal with these sorts of issues)

 

This seems to me like a curiosity question rather than mocking or some such. I agree that it's an interesting point, I am obviously far from an international player, but it's just clear that women events are far weaker in standard than open events (which let's be honest are 95% + male). this isn't taking anything away from the international women, who to reiterate the point are much better players than me, but if a group of men that were slightly below open team standard decided they were "Transgender" and entered womens trials, it could be a real issue.

[hrothgar]

if a group of men that were slightly below open team standard decided they were "Transgender" and entered womens trials, it could be a real issue.

 

I agree that this could be a very real issue (however, I suspect that it won't be)

 

From my own perspective, I think that transwomen should be treated as any other type of woman.

 

I think that men pretending to be transwomen should be dealt with like any other type of cheater.

[pescetom]

I am obviously far from an international player, but it's just clear that women events are far weaker in standard than open events (which let's be honest are 95% + male). this isn't taking anything away from the international women, who to reiterate the point are much better players than me, but if a group of men that were slightly below open team standard decided they were "Transgender" and entered womens trials, it could be a real issue.

 

You're right, but see my point above - do WBF or EBU and others officially recognise that overall women are intrinsically weaker at bridge than men?

If not, then should not all events be open, and why do we tolerate male / female / mixed distinctions with an implicit hierarcy?

It's a complex and delicate situation already, without such reticence.

[eagles123]

I agree that this could be a very real issue (however, I suspect that it won't be)

 

From my own perspective, I think that transwomen should be treated as any other type of woman.

 

I think that men pretending to be transwomen should be dealt with like any other type of cheater.

 

sure I agree people pretending and genuine cases should be treated differently, but Dave and John with beards etc that rock up to a women's event identifying as women, in the current culture is it really worth questioning it? could easily be looking at a lawsuit etc if you call bullshit on it.

[Cyberyeti]

Based on the way in which you are phrasing the question, my assumption is that your primary purpose in doing so is some combination of

 

1. Mocking a very real issue that legitimate transgender individuals grapple with every day

2. Attempting to assuage your egos by winning event that you don't legitimately qualify for

 

Personally, I think that you should be allowed to compete in these events.

I don't think that the EBL should take a position on this topic.

 

At the same time, I think that bridge players should actively seek to ruin your lives...

You'd be acting like a first rate asshole and should be treated as such

 

(The best case scenario is that you are deliberately violating the Conditions of Contest in order to improve your chances of winning an event. In my mind this constitutes cheating. I don't think that it would be worth the time / effort to try such as case, however, I think that bridge players should treat you as cheats. If, instead, your purpose is to further marginalize and mock a group of people who already deal with intense social stigma... Well I consider this far far worse than cheating a card game. I know how the company that I currently work for as well as the one I left a few years back deal with these sorts of issues)

 

No I was not mocking it, in the UK we have one good but not quite absolutely top flight male player to whom this could apply. I don't know how he identifies, but he has turned up at tournaments in dresses with painted nails and make up for years.

 

I was suggesting that if we identified as female this was a real documented thing (and it's not going to happen), not that I turned up in a beard and a dress.

[helene_t]

So I and a group of friends who are decent county players but not international stars in the mens game decide to start identifying as female and turning up at womens events.

Sigh, not this nonsense again, please.

 

Maybe you just don't know anything about this issue. And that's ok since gender dysphoria is probably not among the top-1000 most interesting medical topics. If I weren't TS myself I probably wouldn't be bothered to aquire knowledge about it either.

 

But then please don't make this kind of mock attacks. It is genuinely hurtful.

 

You are not seriously suggesting that there are men who would take pride in having won a women's event. I don't buy that.

 

There are lots of hypothetical situations which the laws don't deal with. Some of them are just too stupid to be worth discussing.

 

If it's about genuine transwomen, as opposed to men pretending to be transwomen, you can just read the document PeterAlan linked to. I am not sure why anyone would want to know, though. Unless you are asking on hehalf of a TG friend who is seeking personal advice, of course.

[hrothgar]

No I was not mocking it, in the UK we have one good but not quite absolutely top flight male player to whom this could apply. I don't know how he identifies, but he has turned up at tournaments in dresses with painted nails and make up for years.

 

I would see absolutely nothing wrong with this individual choosing to compete in a woman's event

 

I was suggesting that if we identified as female this was a real documented thing

 

Here, once again, I would see absolutely nothing wrong with this

[Cyberyeti]

Sigh, not this nonsense again, please.

 

Maybe you just don't know anything about this issue. And that's ok since gender dysphoria is probably not among the top-1000 most interesting medical topics. If I weren't TS myself I probably wouldn't be bothered to aquire knowledge about it either.

 

But then please don't make this kind of mock attacks. It is genuinely hurtful.

 

You are not seriously suggesting that there are men who would take pride in having won a women's event. I don't buy that.

 

There are lots of hypothetical situations which the laws don't deal with. Some of them are just too stupid to be worth discussing.

 

Err, what mock attack, this is not a such a serious issue in bridge, but is a massive issue in other circumstances where this could be worth tens of millions or could get somebody killed (how would you feel about having a hard ball projected at your head 25mph faster than any other woman can). I have some experience through a friend with somebody who doesn't have gender dysphoria, but is gender fluid and on a given day might identify as male, female or agender.

 

It has happened before. There was an American female runner years ago pre drug testing that they only found was male when she died.

[blackshoe]

sure I agree people pretending and genuine cases should be treated differently, but Dave and John with beards etc that rock up to a women's event identifying as women, in the current culture is it really worth questioning it? could easily be looking at a lawsuit etc if you call bullshit on it.

I suppose there might be some folks willing to sue even if they expected to lose. But then I don't have much "faith in humanity".

[Vampyr]

I think that when you retire to the bar and start drinking pints of beer the game might be up :) from then on.

 

Yes, because women don’t drink beer. The only ladylike form of drinking is sipping slowly on a small glass of sherry.

[HeavyDluxe]

You are not seriously suggesting that there are men who would take pride in having won a women's event. I don't buy that.

 

I don't know whether they were or weren't, but I'm not so sure there _aren't_ people who would do bizarre things to win. I'll grant that it's an order of magnitude different, but there are people who go to great lengths to cheat on free, non-League'd tournaments on BBO. And all they get for their success there is a little number next to their name on a free bridge site. Hardly the acclaim one would think incite someone to underhanded conduct.

 

I agree that it's an absurd idea that someone would take pride in that... but, I'm not sure there aren't people who would.

 

If it's about genuine transwomen, as opposed to men pretending to be transwomen, you can just read the document PeterAlan linked to. I am not sure why anyone would want to know, though. Unless you are asking on hehalf of a TG friend who is seeking personal advice, of course.

 

FWIW, I think it's interesting both because of the interesting implications of gender divisions in bridge and because of the odd blend of people who play our game - making it both highly progressive on one hand and oddly conservative on another. But, I understand how that could be seen as poking an sensitive issue with a sharp stick under the guise of 'curiosity'.

[gwnn]

off-topic:

The one thing that I'd change about bridge is stopping or reducing mixed events. I haven't played a lot of mixed events, but from what I saw and heard, they seem to bring out an inordinate amount of misogyny and general ugliness. I could make an argument for it (women are underrepresented in top bridge so these events help them get more experience/exposure, and they will generally be able to find better partners than themselves), but I'm not convinced...

 

And I know that almost no one cares about what I'd change about bridge. Mostly thinking out loud.

[barmar]

I think that men pretending to be transwomen should be dealt with like any other type of cheater.

I suspect this is the kind of problem that only non-trans people can come up with, much like the hysteria over men claiming female gender identity so they could invade ladies' restrooms.

 

The stigma attached to being trans is significant, and it's hard to imagine anyone subjecting themselves to this just so they can enter a women's bridge tournament. It would be like deliberately amputating a limb so you could enter the Special Olympics.

[barmar]

You're right, but see my point above - do WBF or EBU and others officially recognise that overall women are intrinsically weaker at bridge than men?

If not, then should not all events be open, and why do we tolerate male / female / mixed distinctions with an implicit hierarcy?

It's a complex and delicate situation already, without such reticence.

In the early days there probably was the stereotype that men are better than women. And at the time, this was consistent with the rest of society, which was full of gender discrimination.

 

These days, I think the primary reason why women's and mixed events exist is for social reasons (bridge is a social activity, even at the tournament level), and perhaps as a nod to tradition. Male-only events are not allowed because it violates discrimination laws; female-only events presumably don't violate these laws because men have never been a class that was discriminated against.

 

Mixed events are particularly interesting, IMHO. There are probably many players who prefer to play with partners of the same sex, and this forces them to go out of their comfort zone and find a more diverse set of partners. At least we've stopped the old practice of putting all the men in the same compass directions, which did propagate the stereotype that there's a difference in ability.

[bfskinner]

Here is something I have both seen and experienced. There are some men at tournaments in the American South who address women using male pronouns. I don't know what point they are trying to make, or whether it is intended to upset an opponent, but I know it is deliberate and not an accidental mistake (since I appear CIS feminine). I find myself wondering whether they are confused, making a political statement, or doing something that merits calling a director.

[pescetom]

In the early days there probably was the stereotype that men are better than women. And at the time, this was consistent with the rest of society, which was full of gender discrimination.

 

These days, I think the primary reason why women's and mixed events exist is for social reasons (bridge is a social activity, even at the tournament level), and perhaps as a nod to tradition. Male-only events are not allowed because it violates discrimination laws; female-only events presumably don't violate these laws because men have never been a class that was discriminated against.

I'm sure you're right about the early days and tradition. But if that really is all there is to it and men have no advantage, then it is a disgrace that male-male / female-female / mixed categories exist at all, and surprising that women (at least) put up with it, let alone participate in female-only events.

 

Mixed events are particularly interesting, IMHO. There are probably many players who prefer to play with partners of the same sex, and this forces them to go out of their comfort zone and find a more diverse set of partners. At least we've stopped the old practice of putting all the men in the same compass directions, which did propagate the stereotype that there's a difference in ability.

Here in any mixed pair the woman always seems to sit South, which says much about Italian society. I've no idea if it was once obligatory to sit that way or the other way round.