Soloway Jump Shifts

[thepossum]

Hi everyone

 

Despite having played GiB 2/1 (including Soloways) for almost 18 months, they are still quite a mystery to me. I'm still trying to get a handle on the rebids and sequences and whether or not I have used them appropriately - starting to discover there are occasions I have used one with an inappropriate shape/strength

 

The following hand caused some problems finding the right contract - me and GiB playing from an archived Bermuda bowl match. (Edited to avoid confusion, although one BB team ended up in Spades too - but mine and GiB's contract was worse than the BB team :( )

 

I would be grateful for any comments

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saqj742hq764da8c3&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1d(3%2B%20D%2011%2B%20HCPs)p2s(Attempted Soloway%2017%2B%20total%20points%2C%20rebiddable%20S)p3c(KQ%20Clubs)p]133|200[/hv]

 

I had thought I was almost strong enough and planned to show the splinter in clubs. However you need support for diamonds. This left showing my spades again or bidding 3NT. I rebid spades which didn't work out well.

 

Thanks for any comments and guidance on Soloways.

 

P

[hrothgar]

Playing a Soloway SJS you want to have one of three different hand types (which will be clarified by your rebid)

 

1. A self sufficient Trump suit (good chance for zero losers opposite a stiff in partner's hand)

2. A fit showing SJS

3. A NT oriented hand

 

Note that in each of these cases, the player making the SJS should know what the strain is going to be before making the SJS/seeing responder's rebid.

If you don't know what the strain is going to be, then your hand does not qualify for the SJS.

 

With this hand,

 

1. I'd want to take away a heart and add the King of Spades for hand type 1

2. I'd want to swap the red suits for hand type 2 (and be a smidge stronger)

3. I'd want to move a Spade to Clubs for hand type 3 (and be a bit stronger)

[chasetb]

First off, here's a good summary by Karen Walker on Soloway Jump Shifts. In that link is a much longer and in-depth article, I will link that here.

 

I wouldn't jump-shift here for several reasons: our spades aren't quite good enough (I want the 10 or the King if it's only a 6-card suit), we may belong in Hearts (or Diamonds, or even NT on a misfit where we don't have slam), our hand isn't strong enough, and any of the information we need, we could just as easily get via 1♠.

[FelicityR]

Whilst not an expert on 2/1 bidding, or GIB bidding either, I remember reading somewhere that Soloway Jump Shifts require 17+ HCPs too, and although distributional hands with strong suits, and/or a fit for opener's suit can get away with less than this, this hand doesn't look or feel like a jump shift hand (which the other forum members have already commentated upon.)

 

Here in antiquated Acol-land we are very familiar with strong jump shifts (SJS) but they were used slightly differently than Soloway shifts: they were a mechanism to warn partner not to stop bidding before a game contract is reached, and whilst Soloway's are sending exactly the same message, the Soloway has extra oomph.

 

I have older Acol books at home where the strong jump shift is even bid on a 4 card suit (!). In this day and age this would be anathema.

 

With a competent partner there are various other bids that keep the bidding moving without stopping below game with a hand like this, for example 4th suit forcing, checkback mechanisms, game forcing second bids, etc. And you don't lose a round of bidding by using a SJS when another bid is available.

[Cyberyeti]

Playing a Soloway SJS you want to have one of three different hand types (which will be clarified by your rebid)

 

1. A self sufficient Trump suit (good chance for zero losers opposite a stiff in partner's hand)

2. A fit showing SJS

3. A NT oriented hand

 

Note that in each of these cases, the player making the SJS should know what the strain is going to be before making the SJS/seeing responder's rebid.

If you don't know what the strain is going to be, then your hand does not qualify for the SJS.

 

With this hand,

 

1. I'd want to take away a heart and add the King of Spades for hand type 1

2. I'd want to swap the red suits for hand type 2 (and be a smidge stronger)

3. I'd want to move a Spade to Clubs for hand type 3 (and be a bit stronger)

 

This is a good summary, I play SJS but not Soloway, but the key to type one is that it's single suited for me. This is a simple 1♠ response.

[akwoo]

Playing Soloway Jump Shifts means you make a jump shift only when:

 

1) You have slam opposite the appropriate minimum, AND

2) Partner can tell what you are looking for after your second bid.

 

-----------------

 

"Old-fashioned" bidding systems, such as Acol or Goren, were invented before written bidding and or bidding boxes. You couldn't have complex bidding sequences because you might forget the bidding. Nowadays, it's perfectly okay to have long, somewhat obscure bidding sequences that continue to be forcing but take a long time to find the right strain. So, if you have a hand that is strong but isn't entirely sure where to play, you can keep making low level forcing bids until you figure it out.

 

Making a jump shift on this hand is basically worrying that partner will end up passing one of your forcing bids, say after 1D-1S-2C-2H(*)-3C-3S. (Most, including GIB, play 2H as artificial and forcing to game in this situation.)

[helene_t]

3. I'd want to move a Spade to Clubs for hand type 3 (and be a bit stronger)

You should move a heart to clubs. With 5422 you have interest in a hearts contract, and you can't find that after an SJS.

[wank]

2s on this hand is pretty much a crime. who did that in a bermuda bowl? if it's from a long time ago, bidding was terrible even among good players.

[thepossum]

2s on this hand is pretty much a crime. who did that in a bermuda bowl? if it's from a long time ago, bidding was terrible even among good players.

 

Unfortunately I'm not good enough to have been picked for the Bermuda Bowl yet. This was my bid :)

[Tramticket]

2s on this hand is pretty much a crime. who did that in a bermuda bowl? if it's from a long time ago, bidding was terrible even among good players.

 

I am confused by this on the one hand OP states:

 

from an archived Bermuda bowl match

 

But the OP also says:

 

I had thought I was almost strong enough and planned to show the splinter in clubs. However you need support for diamonds. This left showing my spades again or bidding 3NT. I rebid spades which didn't work out well.

 

Maybe thepossum did play in a Bermuda Bowl as well as posting to the Novice/Beginner forum?! But I agree that a Strong Jump Shift on this hand is criminal, for all of the reasons given above.

 

EDit: My post crossed with thepossum!

[thepossum]

As others have indicated (thanks for all the advice) this hand was not strong enough or well suited for a Soloway SJS since you end up in a slam (Spades, Diamonds, No trumps) all of which are a disaster. Best contract was 3NT but at least I wasn't alone ending in Spades - I would have been happy with 4S - nothelped playing with GiB which figures a void in trumps is a good slam chance :(

However my 6S-many (miraculously undoubled) scored better than 4SX-2 at another table :)

 

If you could get to 3NT that was the go. All I can say it that due to no good judgement on my part this was one of the few hands in tihs set of hands where me and GiB (and USA 1) bettered Italy :)

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saqj742hq764da8c3&w=skt9853ht5djckq84&n=shaj2dkq963cajt92&e=s6hk983dt7542c765&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1dp2sp3cp3sp6s(LOL)ppp]399|300[/hv]

 

PS I must say I am disappointed that a very interesting thread about Soloways has been ruined yetagain by a stupid comment from someone. Par for the course in tho place. Almost every thread I have posted over the last 18 months has been ruined by some ignorant disrepsectful moronic comment from someone :(

 

Thanks to everyone who answered seriously. I really enjoyed all the nice constructive posts.

[hrothgar]

The reason that GIB felt that 6♠ was a good choice of contract even though it had a void was that you promised a spade suit that is strong enough to play in Spades opposite a void.

[Cyberyeti]

6♠ is not silly if he's expecting KQJ10xxxx, Kxx, Ax, void or similar which is closer to what you've shown.

[thepossum]

"Thanks to everyone who answered seriously. I really enjoyed all the nice constructive posts (EDIT until now)."

 

 

Then to make matters worse the usual suspects come in with some arrogant patronising comments to defend a ***** bid by their Bot and try to humiliate a poster. Its kind of a tag team strategy and certain characters pretend they are reasonable and decent but are part of the bullying crowd

 

Come on both of you. This is me you are talking to not some moron

 

Check out the last 18 months of posts ruined on this place and some of the same charcaters will come in after the bullying has started and pretend to be reasonable. All part of their sick act. Check out all the posts on this site, the constant attack and bullying and rudeness against allcomers, the arrogance, suggestions posters don't know what they are talking about. The tage team, group bullying and humilation. etc. etc. etc

 

Anyone who reads these threads knows the obnoxious people by now

 

PS As usual the thread isn't even about your stupid bot, yet you constantly dredge it up. Any excuse or opportunity to upset someone yes. Nobody with half a brain would bid 6 spades there

[Cyberyeti]

Possum, you are not understanding what you showed by the Soloway jump, you have shown an enormous suit (if you're showing it as the single suited type which you confirmed with 3♠, playable in a slam opposite a stiff or void), and 6♠ is not an unreasonable bid over it.

 

You have set the suit, anything partner bids should be a cue now so he can't shape out, when you rebid spades, you have said that basically we are playing in spades (just occasionally NT at MPs).

[hrothgar]

"Thanks to everyone who answered seriously. I really enjoyed all the nice constructive posts (EDIT until now)."

 

Then to make matters worse the usual suspects come in with some arrogant patronising comments to defend a ***** bid by their Bot and try to humiliate a poster. Its kind of a tag team strategy and certain characters pretend they are reasonable and decent but are part of the bullying crowd

 

Check out the last 18 months of posts ruined on this place and some of the same charcaters will come in after the bullying has started and pretend to be reasonable. All part of their sick act. Check out all the posts on this site, the constant attack and bullying and rudeness against allcomers, the arrogance, suggestions posters don't know what they are talking about. The tage team, group bullying and humilation. etc. etc. etc

 

Anyone who reads these threads knows the obnoxious people by now

 

PS As usual the thread isn't even about your stupid bot, yet you constantly dredge it up. Any excuse or opportunity to upset someone yes. Nobody with half a brain would bid 6 spades there

 

Possum, you really need to understand that this forum and these threads are not all about you.

 

If you make a major mistake, people are going to point this out.

The alternative is that some actual novice / beginner might look at your aberrant bidding and conclude that this this is the right way to bid with your hand. Alternatively, they might look at your "analysis" / complaints and think that they are reasonable.

 

You made two gross misbids with this hand.

 

The initial SJS was the first

The 3!S rebid was the second

 

Then you start claiming that the bot screwed up. If you had ANYTHING like the hand that you promised, 6!S should be a fine contract.

(The big problem with blasting to 6 is that you might easily be missing a good grand)

[scarletv]

When I posted in the forum for the first time some years ago I had a similar impression of being treated very arrogant by some players. But this is not true for the big majority of answers you received here.

 

Concerning the bidding, have a look at the descriptions GIB provides for your 2♠ and 3♠ bid. My bidding with GIB improved a lot when I started reading what I promise in its eyes. It is dangerous to overbid as you will find yourself very fast in slam. GIBs bidding is not the best especially in later bidding rounds and it overbids quite a lot. But this time you don't have the hand you promised so don't blame your partner for misbidding.

[hrothgar]

 

Then to make matters worse the usual suspects come in with some arrogant patronising comments to defend a ***** bid by their Bot and try to humiliate a poster. Its kind of a tag team strategy and certain characters pretend they are reasonable and decent but are part of the bullying crowd

 

 

 

 

Yes Possum, this is "you" that we are talking to...

 

A thin skinned little twit who can not distinguish between criticism and abuse

 

At the start of this thread, you asked questions and got polite answers.

Later in the thread, you made erroneous assertions and complaints and people (politely) pointed out that you were wrong.

 

And now, you start crying about bullying...

 

In all seriousness...

How do the replies that Cyberyeti and I posted constitute bullying?

 

This is me you are talking to not some moron

 

And, who seems to go out of their way to INVITE abuse so that you can go running off to the moderators...

 

Seriously, are you honestly going to claim that this wasn't a transparent attempts to bait people into saying "Actually you are a moron"?

[thepossum]

 

Thanks for any comments and guidance on Soloways.

 

P

 

Currently in hiding for a while but here are some Sim results which kind of back up any side of the argument (using bdeal). Not really good enough for me to bid past game but each to their own :)

 

Assumptions by North of South's hand

 

Sim 1: 15+ HCPs and splinter clubs (Gib doesnt know), 6+ spade points

 

Mean spade tricks by S: 23105 / 2000 = 11.5525 An 0.0446834 (95% conf.) min: 8 max: 13 sdev: 1.01894

chance to win 1S by S: 2000 / 2000 = 1 An 0 (95% conf.) min: 1 max: 1 sdev: 0

chance to win 2S by S: 2000 / 2000 = 1 An 0 (95% conf.) min: 1 max: 1 sdev: 0

chance to win 3S by S: 1997 / 2000 = 0.9985 An 0.00169713 (95% conf.) min: 0 max: 1 sdev: 0.0387008

chance to win 4S by S: 1951 / 2000 = 0.9755 An 0.00677942 (95% conf.) min: 0 max: 1 sdev: 0.154595

chance to win 5S by S: 1710 / 2000 = 0.855 An 0.0154406 (95% conf.) min: 0 max: 1 sdev: 0.352101

chance to win 6S by S: 1053 / 2000 = 0.5265 An 0.0218955 (95% conf.) min: 0 max: 1 sdev: 0.499297

Number of hands dealt: 621821. CPU time usage [sec]: 34.34 (x8 threads).

 

 

 

Sim 2: 15+ HCPs and no splinter assumption, 6+ spade points

 

Mean spade tricks by S: 22700 / 2000 = 11.35 An 0.046791 (95% conf.) min: 7 max: 13 sdev: 1.06701

chance to win 1S by S: 2000 / 2000 = 1 An 0 (95% conf.) min: 1 max: 1 sdev: 0

chance to win 2S by S: 1999 / 2000 = 0.9995 An 0.000980331 (95% conf.) min: 0 max: 1 sdev: 0.0223551

chance to win 3S by S: 1987 / 2000 = 0.9935 An 0.00352401 (95% conf.) min: 0 max: 1 sdev: 0.0803601

chance to win 4S by S: 1920 / 2000 = 0.96 An 0.00859333 (95% conf.) min: 0 max: 1 sdev: 0.195959

chance to win 5S by S: 1590 / 2000 = 0.795 An 0.0177034 (95% conf.) min: 0 max: 1 sdev: 0.403702

chance to win 6S by S: 906 / 2000 = 0.453 An 0.0218293 (95% conf.) min: 0 max: 1 sdev: 0.497786

Number of hands dealt: 191328. CPU time usage [sec]: 28.02 (x8 threads).

 

 

 

Sim 3: 17+ HCPs and no splinter assumption, 6+ spade points

 

Mean spade tricks by S: 23412 / 2000 = 11.706 An 0.0436453 (95% conf.) min: 7 max: 13 sdev: 0.995271

chance to win 1S by S: 2000 / 2000 = 1 An 0 (95% conf.) min: 1 max: 1 sdev: 0

chance to win 2S by S: 1999 / 2000 = 0.9995 An 0.000980331 (95% conf.) min: 0 max: 1 sdev: 0.0223551

chance to win 3S by S: 1997 / 2000 = 0.9985 An 0.00169713 (95% conf.) min: 0 max: 1 sdev: 0.0387008

chance to win 4S by S: 1959 / 2000 = 0.9795 An 0.00621406 (95% conf.) min: 0 max: 1 sdev: 0.141703

chance to win 5S by S: 1791 / 2000 = 0.8955 An 0.0134149 (95% conf.) min: 0 max: 1 sdev: 0.305908

chance to win 6S by S: 1187 / 2000 = 0.5935 An 0.0215396 (95% conf.) min: 0 max: 1 sdev: 0.49118

Number of hands dealt: 626902. CPU time usage [sec]: 35.11 (x8 threads).

 

Note. I think An is two (1.96??) standard errors (funny character in my command window)

[hrothgar]

 

here are some Sim results which kind of back up any side of the argument (using bdeal)

 

 

 

I'm not sure what hands match the constraints in your sims. For example,

 

What does "6 spade points" mean?

How many spades does the bid promise?

 

Once again, the 3!S rebid shows a pretty specific hand type

 

The article that Chasetb link suggested the following as a prototypical example...

 

♠AKQJ843 ♥6 ♦A84 ♣64

[Cyberyeti]

A sim is only as good as its assumptions, for the single suited style of SJS IMO the spade suit should be:

 

4 of the top 5 if 6 cards long.

 

AKQ or 4 of the top 5 if 7 cards long

 

AK or 3 of the top 4 if 8 cards long

 

I suspect you have included much weaker spade suits than this.

[smerriman]

Currently in hiding for a while but here are some Sim results which kind of back up any side of the argument (using bdeal). Not really good enough for me to bid past game but each to their own :)

 

Assumptions by North of South's hand

 

Sim 1: 15+ HCPs and splinter clubs (Gib doesnt know), 6+ spade points

Sim 2: 15+ HCPs and no splinter assumption, 6+ spade points

Sim 3: 17+ HCPs and no splinter assumption, 6+ spade points

You're forgetting you bid 3♠.

 

You're right in that bidding 2♠ shows a good suit, with at most one missing honor (amongst other things).

 

But after partner doesn't raise spades to show the other honor, bidding 3♠ confirms a solid suit, as per all of the posts + links above.

 

If you had a splinter, GIB would know, because you would have bid it!

 

Eg, Karen Walker's site:

 

A simple rebid of your jump-shift suit (1C-2S-3C-3S) shows a long' date=' solid suit with more high-card strength than the jump to four.[/quote']

So all your sims need to be adjusted to give South a solid spade suit to give accurate results.

 

[edit] I may be wrong, but I have a feeling you may be confusing 'splinter' with 'shortness'. You said you originally planned to show a splinter - but you don't have a splinter. (Splinter means shortness in the suit bid, AND support for your partner's suit.) If you had a splinter, you'd be in a diamond slam, not a spade slam, so sim 1 shouldn't be counting tricks in spades.

[smerriman]

The definition GIB uses for solid suit can be found here:

 

https://www.bridgebase.com/doc/gib_descriptions.php

 

solid 6-card

AKQTxx or AKQJxx

solid 7-card

AKQxxxx

solid 8-card

AKJxxxxx or AKxxxxxxx or better

 

I therefore ran a sim with these conditions:

 

predeal north HAJ2, DKQ963, CAJT92

predeal south SAK

 

condition hcp(south)>=16 and (

(spades(south)==6 and (hcp(south,spades)==10 or hcp(south,spades)==9 and hascard(south,TS)))

or

(spades(south)==7 and hcp(south,spades)>=9)

or

(spades(south)==8 and hcp(south,spades)>=8)

or

(spades(south)>=9)

)

 

The results over 500 deals:

 

13 tricks: 48.8%

12 tricks: 34.8%

11 tricks: 12%

10 tricks: 4.4%

 

6♠ is a terrible bid - but only because of the high chance of making 7. After hearing 3♠, North should never be stopping at less than a slam - GIB just isn't good enough to find 7.

 

Edit - I like Cyberyeti's definition more, which could have one loser - adjusting the sim to use those figures still clearly gives 6♠ as the minimum contract you want to reach.

[smerriman]

While I'm here, I actually have my own question about Soloway and Karen Walker's interpretation of it that I've always been meaning to ask.

 

She says one option is:

 

A slam-try or better hand (16+ pts.) with a good 5+-card suit and length in opener's suit.

She also says:

 

A raise of responder's suit promises one of the top three honors and at least doubleton support (Qx or better, although some players advocate raising with even a singleton honor).

A failure to raise responder'ssuit DENIES one of the top three honors in his suit.

With the hand described above, after:

 

1♦ - 2♠ - 3♠

 

Is a new suit still a splinter for diamonds, or a cue in spades? If the latter, doesn't that mean we could be playing in a bad spade fit (possibly 5-2 - or even 5-1!) instead of a great diamond fit? If the former, how are spades set as trumps? If I need to bid 4♦ to set diamonds, what do I bid when wanting to play in spades but have xx in clubs?

 

I know there's an alternative form of Soloway with relay responses, but the version she mentions must be playable.

[hrothgar]

The 3♠ rebid sets the trump suit

 

I believe that new suit is traditionally used as a cue bid