another alert question - stolen bid double

[phoenixmj]

Today my partner opened 2 spades. RHO passed and I said 2NT (we play Ogust).

 

My LHO doubled. There was no alert by his partner and I guess I just took it as showing points or asking for another suit.

 

After we played 3NT - down 3 - ugh - LHO asked his partner if he had caught his double as meaning unusual 2NT. Showing 2 5-card minors. I feel that we were somewhat damaged since there had been no alert - but I frankly just did not bother to call the director. I never would have landed in 3NT had I known that he had 2 5 card minors.

 

I know my opponents to be ethical players, so if there were an infraction I am sure it was not intentional.

 

So - my question is - is this stolen bid double alertable? Frankly I thought it was but not sure.

 

Thanks in advance.

[johnu]

Today my partner opened 2 spades. RHO passed and I doubled (we play Ogust).

 

My LHO doubled.

Presumably you mean you bid 2NT

 

There was no alert by his partner and I guess I just took it as showing points or asking for another suit.

 

After we played 3NT - down 3 - ugh - LHO asked his partner if he had caught his double as meaning unusual 2NT. Showing 2 5-card minors. I feel that we were damaged since there had been no alert - but I frankly just did not bother to call the director. I never would have landed in 3NT had I known that he had 2 5 card minors.

 

So - my question is - is this stolen bid double alertable? Frankly I thought it was but not sure.

 

Thanks in advance.

If both minors was the agreement for double, it should have been alerted. I've never heard of that "agreement". What did the doubler's partner say?

[rmnka447]

If it was a stolen bid double, it should have been alerted.

 

Likewise, since the 2 NT response standard after a weak 2 is for a feature, 2 NT should have been alerted.

[phoenixmj]

Presumably you mean you bid 2NT

 

 

If both minors was the agreement for double, it should have been alerted. I've never heard of that "agreement". What did the doubler's partner say?

 

His partner said he had caught the bid. So evidently it must be an agreement. I was clueless unfortunately.

 

We went down much more than we would have if I had supported partner's suit - which I would have done had i known the meaning of the bid.

[phoenixmj]

If it was a stolen bid double, it should have been alerted.

 

Likewise, since the 2 NT response standard after a weak 2 is for a feature, 2 NT should have been alerted.

 

The 2NT bid was alerted and ironically, my RHO told my partner that it did not need to be alerted - only the responses to be alerted.

[TylerE]

my partner did alert the 2NT and ironically, my rho told him that the 2nt was not alertable, only the responses.

 

Which is correct, by the way.

[phoenixmj]

Which is correct, by the way.

 

I have been told both ways. Just wanted to confirm that you are making a statement rather than asking a question. Is it correct to alert 2NT when using OGUST?

 

The irony is that he should have alerted and we may have over alerted.

 

Thx,

[TylerE]

No, it is correct to NOT alert.

 

From the alert regs:

 

2♦,♥,♠-P-2NT:

Not Alertable if it asks for further clarification of a natural weak or intermediate two-bid

or if it’s a negative or waiting response to a natural, strong two bid. Natural, non-forcing

2NT responses to opening two-bids must be Alerted

[johnu]

Also, from the Alert Chart, under the Opening Two-Level Suit Bids and Responses category, under the No Alert Column,

 

"Conventional 2NT responses to natural two-level opening bids"

[helene_t]

In New Zealand and Scotland we don't alert any doubles, but obviously it needs to be alerted if your jurisdiction allows alerts of doubles.

 

But I would be skeptical if anyone claimed to have such a bizarre agreement, unless both partners said so independently, or it was explicitly stated on their CC.

[phoenixmj]

In New Zealand and Scotland we don't alert any doubles, but obviously it needs to be alerted if your jurisdiction allows alerts of doubles.

 

But I would be skeptical if anyone claimed to have such a bizarre agreement, unless both partners said so independently, or it was explicitly stated on their CC.

 

 

After the play - my lho specifically asked if his partner caught the double as being a stolen bid (both minors) and his partner was happy to say that he had made the connection. So - I don't know if they have a specific agreement but evidently, it was treated as a stolen bid by both partners.

 

I did not call the director. It did cost us a bit. We scratched and would have done a bit better if we had not had this mishap - but I was more concerned with our play being a bit off. I was not sure if it were something a director would adjust for and I did not want to get into a lengthy discussion. But, I also wanted to know the rules for future reference as I thought we were damaged a bit.

 

I do not think that the failure to alert was intentional. I know them to be ethical players so I feel it was just oversight.

[smerriman]

If it were a 'stolen bid' does that mean if you had passed, 2N would still have been the minors? Surely that would have been alertable too, as it's definitely unusual (more ways than one). Let alone an alertable double as a stolen alertable bid.

[Vampyr]

Why is everyone assuming that the OP is in North America?

[phoenixmj]

If it were a 'stolen bid' does that mean if you had passed, 2N would still have been the minors? Surely that would have been alertable too, as it's definitely unusual (more ways than one). Let alone an alertable double as a stolen alertable bid.

 

Per Larry Cohen - quoted from his materials:

2NT Overcalls

 

For my intermediate students, this is one of the most misunderstood calls in bridge. A 2NT overcall after a one-level opening is indeed the "Unusual Notrump" for the two lowest unbid suits. But a 2NT overcall after the opponents' weak two-bid is anything but Unusual. It is natural and balanced. It guarantees a stopper in the opponent's suit. The range is that of a strong 1NT opener—maybe a little stronger. I'd say it is at least 15 and could be up to 19. In the balancing seat, it is (as usual) about a king less (still natural, balanced and with a stopper). And again, play "Systems On" – Stayman, Jacoby, etc.

 

I probably would have asked for the meaning of a 2NT overcall if I had passed - and I gather in this case - the answer would have been it is unusual 2NT.

 

In this case, I took it to just be a strong hand.

 

I have to confess, I had not read this 2NT overcall after a weak two - so at the very least I have learned something :)

[Stephen Tu]

Why is everyone assuming that the OP is in North America?

Maybe because "phoenixmj" sounds like someone with initials mj from Phoenix. There's like 4 cities in the world named Phoenix, and all are in the U.S., so it's a somewhat reasonable assumption?

 

[dsLawsd]

Very good question here. I assume the auction went 2♠ pass

2NT (ogust) double. If the agreement was minors and not takeout of spades an alert would seem correct.

But partner should still respond with the correct Ogust response.

After 3NT might end the auction anyway. But when the hand is played and it becomes clear what the double meant, then the Director really should be called to protect everyone's rights. They will then probably take doubler's partner aside and ask him what their agreement was if any and also decide if there was damage. That might or might not be an adjusted score.

 

A good message for all using weak twos to have understandings about how to handle interference including doubles.

 

Other Bridge organizations besides the ACBL will handle this differently as we have heard.

[heart76]

Whichever the rules for alerting are, asking is always a good idea before taking further action, unless you have a way to be quite sure about the meaning.

The X you described is not really an usual thing. Giving 20+ HCP to your line, I do not see any holding your lho would use a natural X with, nor takeout.

Specifically about the rules, if the X shall NOT be alerted anyway, you cannot claim anything.

If they should have alerted and forgot, or if your rho lied in his answer as he had taken the X as penalty, the TD has to evaluate the likely bidding sequence when you have the correct information and adjust the score if you have been damaged.

I have been recently involved in a case where a lack of alert generated a weird situation where it was impossible to know for sure if the opponents had an agreement or not. I have been told by experts that in this case the TD shall consider the bid as intended as the correct one and the lack of explanation a rule infringement, even when the bid in question was not subject of agreement, as in this case it should have been alerted as such.

[fourdad]

Presumably you mean you bid 2NT

 

I would say:

1. Don't assume what opps bid means

2. Ask!

 

If you do not, then the failure is NOT on their failure to alert.

 

If both minors was the agreement for double, it should have been alerted. I've never heard of that "agreement". What did the doubler's partner say?

[pescetom]

Other Bridge organizations besides the ACBL will handle this differently as we have heard.

 

Many other bridge organizations would shudder on reading "Not Alertable if it asks for further clarification of a natural weak or intermediate two-bid or if it’s a negative or waiting response to a natural, strong two bid. Natural, non-forcing 2NT responses to opening two-bids must be Alerted" :blink:

 

That aside, I still don't see how or why you ended up in 3NT.

[phoenixmj]

I had a singleton in partners suit with stoppers in other suits. A strong 6 card heart suit of my own -

 

Problem was - with the distribution the way it was, and with rho being able to lead through my quasi 2nd stopper in diamonds, as soon as one finesse did not work, I was down because of the long suits in lho hand.

 

If it had occurred to me that rho was 2 suited, I would have just said 3 spades when the bid came back to me.

 

In retrospect, I should have just passed - but playing 3 of partner's suit would not have been as bad. And, our best place to play was 4 hearts. Partner had support for my hearts and we now have better transportation.

 

I had an opening hand of my own.

[msjennifer]

SIRS,what does '"Not Alertable "mean EXACTLY ? Does it leave the option of alerting open or does it mean "MUST NOT be alerted".If the option exists then I feel that , in all fairness ,both the 2NT (some play it as feature asking and some play it as OGUST and which one is practised by you ?) and 2NTx be alerted as 2NTx can have multiple meanings. Thanks.

[barmar]

SIRS,what does '"Not Alertable "mean EXACTLY ? Does it leave the option of alerting open or does it mean "MUST NOT be alerted".If the option exists then I feel that , in all fairness ,both the 2NT (some play it as feature asking and some play it as OGUST and which one is practised by you ?) and 2NTx be alerted as 2NTx can have multiple meanings. Thanks.

I think most jurisdictions have a simple rule: You alert bids that are alertable, you don't alert non-altertable bids. The option is never left to the player to decide.

 

That said, some of ACBL's alerting rules are vague and require judgement calls.

[pescetom]

I had a singleton in partners suit with stoppers in other suits. A strong 6 card heart suit of my own -

 

Problem was - with the distribution the way it was, and with rho being able to lead through my quasi 2nd stopper in diamonds, as soon as one finesse did not work, I was down because of the long suits in lho hand.

 

If it had occurred to me that rho was 2 suited, I would have just said 3 spades when the bid came back to me.

 

In retrospect, I should have just passed - but playing 3 of partner's suit would not have been as bad. And, our best place to play was 4 hearts. Partner had support for my hearts and we now have better transportation.

 

I had an opening hand of my own.

 

So your partner and RHO both passed the double and you bid 3NT? Sorry but I still don't get it. Even if you had no agreement how to handle interference over Ogust, I imagine that the default for you as a pair would be either to ignore double (and thus reply normally) or to use D0P1 or D1P0 step replies (in which case you should have alerted the pass and it showed few HCP). And what did you make of the fact that RHO passed the double of spades? If it was takeout then he has no fear of your partner's spades and LHO must have hearts and some minor honours - not good reasons to rush into 3NT, I would think.

[phoenixmj]

So your partner and RHO both passed the double and you bid 3NT? Sorry but I still don't get it. Even if you had no agreement how to handle interference over Ogust, I imagine that the default for you as a pair would be either to ignore double (and thus reply normally) or to use D0P1 step replies (in which case pass showed a weak hand outside of spades). And what did you make of the fact that RHO passed the double of spades? If it was takeout then he has no fear of your partner's spades and LHO must have hearts and some minor honours - more a moment to ask questions than to rush into 3NT, I would think.

 

 

No - my partner indicated a strong suit and a "weak" hand - using OGUST. So a 3d bid came back to me and I said 3N. I would have been better in 3s as it turned out. Our best place was 4 hearts - which makes.

 

Had I to do it over- I would certainly ask what LHO meant before my next bid. So, next time I will and hopefully get out of jail free:)

[pescetom]

No - my partner indicated a strong suit and a "weak" hand - using OGUST. So a 3d bid came back to me and I said 3N. I would have been better in 3s as it turned out. Our best place was 4 hearts - which makes.

 

Had I to do it over- I would certainly ask what LHO meant before my next bid. So, next time I will and hopefully get out of jail free:)

 

Got it, thanks. And yes, it would be a good idea to ask next time I think.