Alert Beyond 3NT Level

[captyogi]

During Course of Bidding

 

Player Bids 4C ( Asking Aces ), His Partner Alerts,

Opponents Object , saying Do Not Alert Any Bid Beyond 3NT.

 

Is it Correct ??

[pran]

During Course of Bidding

 

Player Bids 4C ( Asking Aces ), His Partner Alerts,

Opponents Object , saying Do Not Alert Any Bid Beyond 3NT.

 

Is it Correct ??

It depends on the relevant regulation in force, but I believe this is almost correct in most jurisdictions.

The exceptions are (possibly) artificial opening bids, and also any artificial call when screens are used.

[sanst]

As pran wrote, it’s dependent on the jurisdiction. Here, Netherlands, you shouldn’t alert any call above 3NT, with the exception of bids in the first round of the auction reckoned from the opening call. If the auction is (pass)-pass-(pass)-2NT-(pass)-4♣, this last call should be alerted, but not the answer. So this statement is in part correct.

[captyogi]

It depends on the relevant regulation in force, but I believe this is almost correct in most jurisdictions.

The exceptions are (possibly) artificial opening bids, and also any artificial call when screens are used.

 

 

Thank You. Noted.

[captyogi]

As pran wrote, it’s dependent on the jurisdiction. Here, Netherlands, you shouldn’t alert any call above 3NT, with the exception of bids in the first round of the auction reckoned from the opening call. If the auction is (pass)-pass-(pass)-2NT-(pass)-4♣, this last call should be alerted, but not the answer. So this statement is in part correct.

 

 

Thank You. Noted.

[chrism]

In North America, alerts of artificial bids above the level of 3NT, from opener's first rebid on, are delayed until the end of the auction. Note that the regulation refers to bids, not calls: artificial passes, doubles and redoubles continue to require immediate alerts.

[pescetom]

As pran wrote, it’s dependent on the jurisdiction. Here, Netherlands, you shouldn’t alert any call above 3NT, with the exception of bids in the first round of the auction reckoned from the opening call. If the auction is (pass)-pass-(pass)-2NT-(pass)-4♣, this last call should be alerted, but not the answer.

This is exactly the same in Italy too, and probably in several countries as it is a cut and paste of WBF policy.

[Cyberyeti]

This is exactly the same in Italy too, and probably in several countries as it is a cut and paste of WBF policy.

 

Same in EBUland too

[RMB1]

Same in EBUland too

 

The EBU regulation does not include alerting 4NT, 5NT, ... bids ever.

[Cyberyeti]

The EBU regulation does not include alerting 4NT, 5NT, ... bids ever.

 

OK, didn't know that, but this was 4♣

 

Also I can see that this can cause problems as I suspect pretty much nobody at my club knows this:

 

I'd never seen anybody use 2N-5N as anything other than bid 6 with a minimum and 7 with a maximum. Hence a 2N-5N-6N auction is likely to pass without questions. We came across a pair playing it as pick a slam, so I'd have felt very peeved if I'd misdefended based on my misconception that they'd shown a minimum.

[pescetom]

The EBU regulation does not include alerting 4NT, 5NT, ... bids ever.

 

Even if they are artificial on first round (some of our players treat 1NT - 4NT as Blackwood) ?

Even if they are arficial openings (Acol 4NT anyone) ?

[nige1]

This illustrates the chaos caused by unnecessary regulation, especially when local variation multiplies confusion. The only upside is that we can create a "loony trivia quiz", asking which calls are alertable e.g.

 

 

1. 4♣ (Gerber)?
2. 4N (Specific ace ask) ?
3. 1♠ Pass 4♣ (Splinter)?
4. 1♠ Pass 2♠ Pass 4♣ (Splinter)?
5. 1♣ 4♣ (Pre-empt) Pass (Forcing)?
6. 1♣ 4♣ (Pre-empt) Double (Take-out)?
7. 1♣ 4♣ (Pre-empt) Double (Lead-directing)?
8. Pass (Natural) Pass 1♠ Pass 4♣ (Splinter)?
9. Pass (Forcing) Pass 1♠ Pass 4♣ (Exclusion)?

No. I don't now the answers. I doubt any player does. IMO...

• All calls should be announced by the caller's partner (preferably by pointing to relevant boxes in a matrix of common explanations).
• The only exception being when opponents ask you not to announce.
• Even then, the declaring side would have to explain their auction before the opening lead.

These suggestions would save rain-forests. They would simplify relevant rules, perhaps enabling some players and directors to understand them. Arguably, they would also make the game more fun, speed it up, and reduce UI.

[Cyberyeti]

This illustrates the chaos caused by unnecessary regulation, especially when local variation multiplies confusion. The only upside is that we can create a "loony trivia quiz", asking which calls are alertable e.g.

 

 

1. 4♣ (Gerber)?
2. 4N (Specific ace ask) ?
3. 1♠ Pass 4♣ (Splinter)?
4. 1♠ Pass 2♠ Pass 4♣ (Splinter)?
5. 1♣ 4♣ (Pre-empt) Pass (Forcing)?
6. 1♣ 4♣ (Pre-empt) Double (Penalty)?
7. Pass (Natural) Pass 1♠ Pass 4♣ (Splinter)?
8. Pass (Forcing) Pass 1♠ Pass 4♣ (Exclusion)?

No. I don't now the answers. I doubt any player does. IMO...

• All calls should be announced by the caller's partner (preferably by pointing to relevant boxes in a matrix of common explanations).
• The only exception being when opponents ask you not to announce.
• Even then, the declaring side would have to explain their auction before the opening lead.

These suggestions would save rain-forests. They would simplify relevant rules, perhaps enabling some players and directors to understand them. Arguably, they would also make the game more fun, speed it up, and reduce UI.

 

Most of these are easy

 

1:Alertable

2:Not

3:alertable

4: not

7:alertable

 

5 and 6 presuming 4♣ is an overcall probably are, 8 I would need to look up.

 

We add a load of things that really ought to be alerted to be fair to the opposition in our system, 4♣-P-4N is the "I've got your side suits buttoned up, can you play a slam opposite small singleton or void in your suit" bid, 3♥-P-4N is voidwood with a void spade.

 

Bonus question: 3♥-4N(excl void ♠)-5♦-6♥ opps look at card, "is that one of 5 or one of 4", you reply truthfully "one of 4", any redress when it wasn't the 4 they had in mind ?

[pescetom]

Most of these are easy

 

1:Alertable

2:Not

3:alertable

4: not

7:alertable

 

5 and 6 presuming 4♣ is an overcall probably are, 8 I would need to look up.

 

We add a load of things that really ought to be alerted to be fair to the opposition in our system, 4♣-P-4N is the "I've got your side suits buttoned up, can you play a slam opposite small singleton or void in your suit" bid, 3♥-P-4N is voidwood with a void spade.

 

Bonus question: 3♥-4N(excl void ♠)-5♦-6♥ opps look at card, "is that one of 5 or one of 4", you reply truthfully "one of 4", any redress when it wasn't the 4 they had in mind ?

 

May I too jump into the fun Loony Quiz, rather than discuss the merit of nige1's argument B-)

2. Not alertable seems crazy to me, this is a bug in your regulations.

5. and 6. I suspect he meant 4♣ as a raise, in which case 5. alertable, 6. not over here (not an automatic choice I agree).

8. Is an amusing provocation - if forcing pass were allowed without screens then I guess it should but does not constitute part of the first round of bidding.

It's a tad academic however, akin to whether a redouble of 7NT must be followed by 3 passses to end the auction.

Bonus Question. Yes they get redress if damaged even though they were hapless. Also see reply to 2.

[blackshoe]

OP appears to be in India, so India's regs would apply. The IBF Alerting Policy is at Appendix 3 of this document.

[Cyberyeti]

May I too jump into the fun Loony Quiz, rather than discuss the merit of nige1's argument B-)

2. Not alertable seems crazy to me, this is a bug in your regulations.

 

 

I can see what you're getting at but for 4N if you don't have this rule:

 

2N-4N-5♥ is a 5 card heart suit slam try

2N-4N*-5♥ is 2 aces and no 5 card suit

 

I see less potential abuse with 5N, although I suppose it's still there

[Vampyr]

Most of these are easy

 

1:Alertable

2:Not

3:alertable

4: not

7:alertable

 

5 and 6 presuming 4♣ is an overcall probably are, 8 I would need to look up.

 

We add a load of things that really ought to be alerted to be fair to the opposition in our system, 4♣-P-4N is the "I've got your side suits buttoned up, can you play a slam opposite small singleton or void in your suit" bid, 3♥-P-4N is voidwood with a void spade.

 

Bonus question: 3♥-4N(excl void ♠)-5♦-6♥ opps look at card, "is that one of 5 or one of 4", you reply truthfully "one of 4", any redress when it wasn't the 4 they had in mind ?

 

That opponents ask a deficient question does not mean that you a should give a deficient reply. It reminds me of when we used to alert weak openings instead of announce them: 2♠(Lucas) “is it weak?””yes”.

 

But this is one reason that it is best to just ask what it is. And if they give you a convention name, ask again.

[Vampyr]

I can see what you're getting at but for 4N if you don't have this rule:

 

2N-4N-5♥ is a 5 card heart suit slam try

2N-4N*-5♥ is 2 aces and no 5 card suit

 

I see less potential abuse with 5N, although I suppose it's still there

 

It doesn’t look like 4NT is an opening bid in your examples. I am certain that a 4NT opener is alertable no matter what it means (or announcable if natural).

[pescetom]

I can see what you're getting at but for 4N if you don't have this rule:

 

2N-4N-5♥ is a 5 card heart suit slam try

2N-4N*-5♥ is 2 aces and no 5 card suit

 

Sure, the potential of a 2-way agreement is there, although I would want to see the system card if they tried to pull the second on me, and of course they can only write one thing there (mine says 4NT = quantitative).

[RMB1]

Even if they are artificial on first round (some of our players treat 1NT - 4NT as Blackwood) ?

Even if they are arficial openings (Acol 4NT anyone) ?

 

EBU Blue Book 4B4

"Once the auction is above the level of 3NT, no calls are to be alerted except for:

(a) Artificial suit bids above 3NT made before the opening bidder’s second turn to call (i.e. the first bid and the next three calls)"

 

(my emphasis)

[Cyberyeti]

EBU Blue Book 4B4

"Once the auction is above the level of 3NT, no calls are to be alerted except for:

(a) Artificial suit bids above 3NT made before the opening bidder’s second turn to call (i.e. the first bid and the next three calls)"

 

(my emphasis)

 

So the intent is totally screwed up by a forcing pass ? in that opener has showed values, but not actually bid merely called so his second action after he shows values also falls under this ?

[pescetom]

OP appears to be in India, so India's regs would apply. The IBF Alerting Policy is at Appendix 3 of this document.

 

Interesting to see that in India too psych bids are prohibited in lower levels of competition.

[Vampyr]

EBU Blue Book 4B4

"Once the auction is above the level of 3NT, no calls are to be alerted except for:

(a) Artificial suit bids above 3NT made before the opening bidder’s second turn to call (i.e. the first bid and the next three calls)"

 

(my emphasis)

 

LOL Cannot work out from this whether a 4NT opening bid is alertable!

[Vampyr]

Interesting to see that in India too psych bids are prohibited in lower levels of competition.

 

This is fine, as long as these lower level competitions have no association with the national body, the regional body or the WBF.

[captyogi]

Yes, I am From India. So Bridge Federation of India ( BFI ) Regulations Applicable.

 

Reading All Above Replies I am More Confused.

Things Should Be Simple , Beyond 3NT Level Do Not Alert.

But For Safety Many Prefer to Alert as otherwise after the Bidding is Over Opps Call TD and He Did Not Alert, I Reserve My Right.