Find a fit? or find a stopper?

[kingfish]

At club matchpoints, the auction starts with

Partner as dealer opens 1♦

RHO passes

You bid 1♥

LHO bids 1♠

Partner bids 2♦

RHO passes

You have 3 decent diamonds and 11 HCP, 12 evaluated

 

You have no spade stopper.

 

Assume you and partner do play cuebids as suit agreement/limit+ as is standard and normal. I am not defining standard nor normal here as that may be part of the issue in question.

Assume you have no agreements for Western cues. Assume partner is advanced and thinks you are, too :) Otherwise, you have no history or agreements that come into play.

 

Should you agree diamonds given the fit now known to you? If so, is 2♠ a cudbid agreeing diamonds and limit+ values?

Should you ignore the diamond fit and assume partner knows you are bidding stoppers not fit seeking?

If 2♠ is a stopper-oriented bid, is it asking or showing? Given that it was bid by opps, does that affect the meaning?

Why is your answer correct and knowable? If your answer involves a convention please identify it.

 

Thanks.

[Stephen Tu]

On this auction, cue would be assumed to be some generic gf. You may or not have diamonds. You might just have long hearts (6+) and setting up a force.

 

With diamond invite just raise.

 

In response to cue partner will show stopper if held.

[apollo1201]

With the cue bid embarking you so high in the bidding, it can’t be invite as you can no longer play 2M. So it just means I have a good hand but no good natural call available. Either lacking the S stop, or GF with D or H that can’t be expressed by any number of red suit bids. Partner will do sth intelligent over that. He probably won’t give a late fit in H with 3 cards since he didn’t X and chose to rebid his D. So ok maybe with

 

xx

xxx

AKQxxx

Kx

 

I am probably bidding 2D myself too.

 

Here depends on how you feel your 11+ will work. Maybe 3D is enough.

[dsLawsd]

3♦ over to you partner. Just bridge. Partner can show 3 hearts, bid no trump or pass depending on his/her strength. But he is limited to about 15/16 HCP. With a spade stopper he now knows to go on with a running diamond suit. No, game will not always make.

[PhilG007]

At club matchpoints, the auction starts with

Partner as dealer opens 1♦

RHO passes

You bid 1♥

LHO bids 1♠

Partner bids 2♦

RHO passes

You have 3 decent diamonds and 11 HCP, 12 evaluated

 

You have no spade stopper.

 

Assume you and partner do play cuebids as suit agreement/limit+ as is standard and normal. I am not defining standard nor normal here as that may be part of the issue in question.

Assume you have no agreements for Western cues. Assume partner is advanced and thinks you are, too :) Otherwise, you have no history or agreements that come into play.

 

Should you agree diamonds given the fit now known to you? If so, is 2♠ a cudbid agreeing diamonds and limit+ values?

Should you ignore the diamond fit and assume partner knows you are bidding stoppers not fit seeking?

If 2♠ is a stopper-oriented bid, is it asking or showing? Given that it was bid by opps, does that affect the meaning?

Why is your answer correct and knowable? If your answer involves a convention please identify it.

 

Thanks.

It really all depends on what your hand is if its something like :-

♠ xx ♥KJ10x ♦K109 ♣Axxx

 

I would be inclined to pass two diamonds.. You have a known 8 card diamond fit You could try a directional asking bid of

2♠ asking for a spade stop or stops.but you need a partial stop in the suit to operate this device. If partner retreats back to

diamonds you've given the opposition unnecessary valuable information. Partner has signed off showing a

minimal hand and you have 11 points..not enough for game and you have no other suit to show. Passing 2♦

seems to be the sensible and safest option. imho.

[Stephen Tu]

You have a known 8 card diamond fit

NINE card diamond fit. Partner should not ever rebid 2D in competition with only 5. In general one avoids rebidding 5 cd suits unless there is no reasonable alternative and you are kind of forced into it. Responder to opening bidder is still there, can balance back in with double or 2d if you belong in diamonds when opener has only 5. With only 5 should not emphasize diamonds so much, as partner may prefer 1nt, or defending spades, or hearts.

 

 

You could try a directional asking bid of 2♠ asking for a spade stop or stops.but you need a partial stop in the suit to operate this device.

You need a GF hand to operate this device, not a partial stop. Because partner might respond 3H to this with Hx hearts not holding a spade stopper, or if he bids 2nt a bid of 3D by you will be taken as forcing (since with an invitational hand you would just raise 2D to 3D).

Meanwhile, you don't need a partial stop when you have a GF. Otherwise you would be unable to reach 3nt games when partner has a spade stop but you do not have a partial stop. The first cue does not need a partial stop. A *second* cue can be defined as showing a partial stop.

 

If partner retreats back todiamonds you've given the opposition unnecessary valuable information. Partner has signed off showing a

minimal hand and you have 11 points..not enough for game and you have no other suit to show. Passing 2♦

seems to be the sensible and safest option. imho.

 

You have a decent 3nt opposite Kx xxx AQxxxx Kx. Partner won't accept an invite on that but can easily have more. Passing 2♦ is the best/safest option to insure a plus score, as sometimes 3d/3nt fail, but it is not "sensible" to miss a bucketload of good 3nt games. Bridge isn't a game of "just go plus". You need to risk going down occasionally to bid your games, if your gains from bidding and making the games adequately compensate you for the times you go down.

 

Also, if you raise to 3D and it goes down 1, often this is an OK score, because if you passed the opp was going to balance, get to a making 2S, so you would have pushed to 3D anyway.

[kingfish]

What I can find on Directional Asking Bids is:

 

60% - DAB = Western Cue

30% - DAB is like a Western Cue variant that shows a half stopper instead of none

10% - DAB is a separate convention to be discussed with partner before assuming it's on

 

The timing seems to imply they were once synonymous but regional, with the UK region moving to the half-stopper implication and thereby creating some difference between the terms.

 

Is the above 100% wrong? Or does this convention not apply to the question?

[Stephen Tu]

Hmm, learned something new, apparently there are some in UK playing DAB promising half a stop.

Still, I find the concept of requiring a half stop bizarre. Responder, with a GF hand, reasonably often only has only one forcing call available at a sane level. Now he can't bid it without any strength in the opposing suit? For all we know opener might have a double stop they were unable to show conveniently earlier. How do you find the many 3nt contracts that require 1 stop in one hand only?

 

Now in situations where opener has definitively denied a full stop, I think it's fine. Like here if responder cues 2s, opener bids 3d, then responder could reasonably cue 3S showing half a stop and requesting opener to bid 3nt with help.

But otherwise, I think requiring half a stop to cue is rather constraining and makes some hands potentially unbiddable.

 

 

 

[kingfish]

Is it just assumed that everyone plays this? Like 1H-1S-2S which is just assumed to be support and limit+? This is standard, on in the absence of agreements?

[Stephen Tu]

Is it just assumed that everyone plays this? Like 1H-1S-2S which is just assumed to be support and limit+? This is standard, on in the absence of agreements?

 

Only the cue by responder directly after an overcall shows support and limit+. Also many people play cue by advancer as showing this, after an overcall, e.g. 1c-1H-p-2c. This is because:

1. Jump raise in competition 1h-(1s)-3H is played as weak (or maybe mixed) these days, rather than limit.
2. With other hands you have alternate ways to force the bidding (forcing free bid in new suit, or negative double)

So cue can be reserved for support hands.

 

But in other situations, cue does *not* guarantee support. If it goes 1c-p-1h-(1s); for example, 2S by opener does *not* show heart support; actually it tends to deny heart support. This is because:

• opener has a ton of ways to raise already :2H/3H/4H, 3S/3D/4D spl, 4C might still be great suit + support(this one dangerous without discussion), and hardly needs more
• at the same time opener needs a way to show very strong hands that are too strong for say a 3C rebid. Perhaps he has running clubs and a strong hand but no spade stop and only 1 or 2 hearts.

And here, by responder, you need cue in case you have say 6 hearts and a GF, because 2H/3H would be considered NF by most. And with just an invitational diamond raise you have 3D available as an invite. This is unlike your first turn where your raise to 3 is a preempt.

 

Cue bid as your first bid after partner takes a suit call is often support; cues on other auctions are often needed for more general purposes.

[kingfish]

Only the cue by responder directly after an overcall shows support and limit+. Also many people play cue by advancer as showing this, after an overcall, e.g. 1c-1H-p-2c. This is because:

1. Jump raise in competition 1h-(1s)-3H is played as weak (or maybe mixed) these days, rather than limit.
2. With other hands you have alternate ways to force the bidding (forcing free bid in new suit, or negative double)

So cue can be reserved for support hands.

 

But in other situations, cue does *not* guarantee support. If it goes 1c-p-1h-(1s); for example, 2S by opener does *not* show heart support; actually it tends to deny heart support. This is because:

• opener has a ton of ways to raise already :2H/3H/4H, 3S/3D/4D spl, 4C might still be great suit + support(this one dangerous without discussion), and hardly needs more
• at the same time opener needs a way to show very strong hands that are too strong for say a 3C rebid. Perhaps he has running clubs and a strong hand but no spade stop and only 1 or 2 hearts.

And here, by responder, you need cue in case you have say 6 hearts and a GF, because 2H/3H would be considered NF by most. And with just an invitational diamond raise you have 3D available as an invite. This is unlike your first turn where your raise to 3 is a preempt.

 

Cue bid as your first bid after partner takes a suit call is often support; cues on other auctions are often needed for more general purposes.

 

So you would say that 1♦-(1♠)-2♥-(P)-2♠ is NOT a hand worth forcing to game, probably with hearts, but possibly just a strong playing hand for diamonds?

[Stephen Tu]

So you would say that 1♦-(1♠)-2♥-(P)-2♠ is NOT a hand worth forcing to game, probably with hearts, but possibly just a strong playing hand for diamonds?

It's a hand worth forcing to game opposite the 2H call. But it does not necessarily have hearts, might be long diamonds, or diamonds + clubs + extras, or 18-19 balanced without a spade stopper and without 3+ H support.

On this auction, as opposed to something like 1d-p-1h-(1s), there are fewer raises available, so more of the strong raises go into the cue also (hands too strong for 4H, but not having spade shortness (3S splinter)). But support is not guaranteed, opener will clarify on the third round.

 

,

[kingfish]

I don't play Western Cuebids. It's not on my CC so even if my bid looks like a Western Cuebid to you, you know it isn't that. I don't know much about DABs but it seems like if DAB isn't on my CC then 2♠ here isn't one even if you wish I played your CC. Splinters? On without discussion. Western Q? Definitely not. DABs? I don't think so. What do you think?

[smerriman]

It's a bit like saying "I don't play reverses". They're just a part of bidding, you can choose not to make them, but there isn't really an alternative.

[Vampyr]

Hmm, learned something new, apparently there are some in UK playing DAB promising half a stop.

 

New to me too.

[PhilG007]

Hmm, learned something new, apparently there are some in UK playing DAB promising half a stop.

Still, I find the concept of requiring a half stop bizarre. Responder, with a GF hand, reasonably often only has only one forcing call available at a sane level. Now he can't bid it without any strength in the opposing suit? For all we know opener might have a double stop they were unable to show conveniently earlier. How do you find the many 3nt contracts that require 1 stop in one hand only?

 

Now in situations where opener has definitively denied a full stop, I think it's fine. Like here if responder cues 2s, opener bids 3d, then responder could reasonably cue 3S showing half a stop and requesting opener to bid 3nt with help.

But otherwise, I think requiring half a stop to cue is rather constraining and makes some hands potentially unbiddable.

 

 

As a UK resident I can confirm that where ACOL is the dominant system,a DAB only promises a partial stop.

Each of the four UK bridge unions have given a free licence on how DABs are used in their events and left it up to modified

individual partnership agreement provided the bid is alerted and explained on request..

[masse24]

It really all depends on what your hand is if its something like :-

♠ xx ♥KJ10x ♦K109 ♣Axxx

 

I would be inclined to pass two diamonds.

 

Passing two diamonds with the hand you provide would never occur to me.

[kingfish]

It's a bit like saying "I don't play reverses". They're just a part of bidding, you can choose not to make them, but there isn't really an alternative.

 

This doesn't seem right to me. A bid that constitutes a reverse shows your second suit, something you actually hold. It shows an escalation in the auction commensurate with your held values. You can figure out a reverse even if you've never heard of them because they are what they look like. That makes them "just part of the bidding." That's why they are not a convention and they don't go on your CC. A DAB is an artificial construct that departs from bidding your holdings and if partner isn't in on the secret, he might take it as showing a stopper (or other things related to his thinking in the absence of your thinking).

 

I don't know much about DABs. I admit that. I can't criticize them but I see a major difference between them and reverses - bidding a reverse is telling the truth about your holdings while, just like stayman is a lie about clubs, bidding a DAB is lying about your holdings and hoping partner is in on the lie.

[Stephen Tu]

Artificial bid is not equal to "lying about your holdings". Stayman is not a "lie about clubs", since no one is ever intending to have the 2c bid deceive anyone at the table about having clubs. It's just an artificial bid that says nothing about the club holding initially. A cue bid is an artificial call, and on the auctions being discussed functions more or less like fourth suit artificial and forcing, or third suit artificial and forcing. Your opponent has bid the suit, so your 3rd/4th suit call happens to coincide with this. Also the auction has sometimes consumed more space than it would uncontested, so you need the cue to create a low level GF, since having to jump with all your good hands would now bring you past 3nt, a valuable contract (why force yourself to declare 4nt and go down 1 when no bonus for being in 4 rather than 3, also 4nt is often blackwood/RKC), or have you bid a game contract (e.g. 4H), which partner would want to pass the vast majority of the time (because again, why go higher for no bonus), but if you have undisclosed slam interest this is not good.

 

Any experienced bridge player is "in on the secret". When you are bidding the opponent's suit you are looking for either for support for your suit, a notrump stopper, or setting up a forcing rebid on the next round, either in your partner's suit or your own suit. There is no "lying" involved. Artificial bids are fairly essential in bridge.

 

Auction has gone 1d-(1s)-2H. Uncontested, maybe you would have bid 1d-p-1h-p-2d to show a minimum hand and long diamonds. Now the auction is higher, 3d is also needed to show a minimum hand. But what if you have 6 diamonds and a good hand but no spade stopper? Obviously you can't bid 3d. You can't raise hearts without support. Do you really want to jump to 4d and go past 3nt? What is left but cue?

[Cyberyeti]

It really all depends on what your hand is if its something like :-

♠ xx ♥KJ10x ♦K109 ♣Axxx

 

I would be inclined to pass two diamonds.. You have a known 8 card diamond fit You could try a directional asking bid of

2♠ asking for a spade stop or stops.but you need a partial stop in the suit to operate this device. If partner retreats back to

diamonds you've given the opposition unnecessary valuable information. Partner has signed off showing a

minimal hand and you have 11 points..not enough for game and you have no other suit to show. Passing 2♦

seems to be the sensible and safest option. imho.

 

Ridiculous, partner always has xxx, Ax, AQxxxx, Kx if you pass and you make +3

[Vampyr]

I don't play Western Cuebids. It's not on my CC so even if my bid looks like a Western Cuebid to you, you know it isn't that. I don't know much about DABs but it seems like if DAB isn't on my CC then 2♠ here isn't one even if you wish I played your CC. Splinters? On without discussion. Western Q? Definitely not. DABs? I don't think so. What do you think?

 

Well, 2♠ has to be something. Stephen Tu mentioned above that it is like 4th suit artificial and forcing: asking partner to describe her hand further.

 

Naturally, one of the most likely things you want to know about is a spade stopper. Please do not believe the nonsense about needing a partial stopper.

[msjennifer]

Sir. since the OP has asked the meaning of 2S bid without disclosmg his exact distribution hand pattern ,I shall limit my reply only to the way we define this bid.We play the 2S bid as a forcing bid but NOT NECESSARILY a game force as that will mean contracting for 5D with 3 outright losers.2S shows a mild inmterest in game if opener has a guard in spades and a 15/16 HCP hand IF opener bids 2NT over 2S then we bid 3D to suggest that. and he passes with minimum and may bid a game in NT with a better hand..WE bid 3D on the hand described if we have only xx in spades.and pass if wee have xxx in spades and compete with 3D later.This may not sound very logical to many.If as the responder we have a game forcing hand we either bid 2S or an artificial 3C .It is too lengthy to go into details but perhaps may give a generasl idea of what we play as GF OR SGF.THANKS

[kingfish]

Artificial bid is not equal to "lying about your holdings". Stayman is not a "lie about clubs", since no one is ever intending to have the 2c bid deceive anyone at the table about having clubs. It's just an artificial bid that says nothing about the club holding initially. A cue bid is an artificial call, and on the auctions being discussed functions more or less like fourth suit artificial and forcing, or third suit artificial and forcing. Your opponent has bid the suit, so your 3rd/4th suit call happens to coincide with this. Also the auction has sometimes consumed more space than it would uncontested, so you need the cue to create a low level GF, since having to jump with all your good hands would now bring you past 3nt, a valuable contract (why force yourself to declare 4nt and go down 1 when no bonus for being in 4 rather than 3, also 4nt is often blackwood/RKC), or have you bid a game contract (e.g. 4H), which partner would want to pass the vast majority of the time (because again, why go higher for no bonus), but if you have undisclosed slam interest this is not good.

 

Any experienced bridge player is "in on the secret". When you are bidding the opponent's suit you are looking for either for support for your suit, a notrump stopper, or setting up a forcing rebid on the next round, either in your partner's suit or your own suit. There is no "lying" involved. Artificial bids are fairly essential in bridge.

 

Auction has gone 1d-(1s)-2H. Uncontested, maybe you would have bid 1d-p-1h-p-2d to show a minimum hand and long diamonds. Now the auction is higher, 3d is also needed to show a minimum hand. But what if you have 6 diamonds and a good hand but no spade stopper? Obviously you can't bid 3d. You can't raise hearts without support. Do you really want to jump to 4d and go past 3nt? What is left but cue?

 

Sure artificial bids are essential. Artificial bids are inherently different from natural ones. I was just explaining that I see that difference. Artificial bids only work if partner knows what they mean. If they meant what they appear to be they wouldn't be artificial. I am not a newbie rejecting artificial bids, I'm just suggesting that DABs differ from reverses in their presumptive acceptance. I am positing that DABs are not "just part of the bidding" but something someone might not actually play.

 

I agree that this is a situation where natural bidding is not getting the job done well. I don't disagree DABs can be helpful when you are stuck guessing stoppers, they can. Every convention has something it does to make some sticky situation less sticky. Much like avoiding bad slams where a convention helps a lot. Much like identifying shortage. However. conventions are not just like a major suit minimum raise, they have a coded intent and you can opt not to play them.

 

I am trying to ascertain whether, in the presence of an extended partnership discussion of conventions where DABs did not come up and Western Cues were denied, I should just assume DABs are 'on.' I am not denying their value, just trying to find out if DABs are so universal that the cuebid shown will always be taken as a DAB and any exception is partner's mistake. It is obvious that some would take it as a Western Cue but they are close enough that it is almost semantics. But some would take it as diamond support (half of those I've asked) and some would take it as values with the next bid making that clearer. But if these people with other ideas about the meaning are JUST PLAIN WRONG then I can disregard their take. If it is plausible that DABs are not implicitly ON then they are NOT just plain wrong, exceptions might not be partner's mistake and I have to establish an explicit agreement with all partners on the matter.

 

So far, everyone's tone implies that DABs can never be off but their evidence is that it is helpful. Lots of things people don't play are helpful. Exclusion Blackwood comes to mind and you'd NEVER touch that one without an explicit agreement. That is why I seem argumentative. I am trying to battle past the rabid defense of the convention to determine whether it is an explicit agreement thing or a take-it-for-granted kind of thing.

 

The obscurity of the Eastern Cue stops me from taking it as indisputable proof that the convention must be explicitly agreed. The people who don't play a convention don't go around explaining the things they don't play (with the exceptions of Flannery and... wait for it... Western Cues - [there may be others]). So it is hard to find published thought detailing the not playing of DABs.

 

Although this discussion is becoming labored, I am still open to being convinced that DABs are as universal as "playing reverses" however I am not close to being persuaded of that.

 

Thanks to all for trying to help.

[Stephen Tu]

Many conventions are optional. This sort of cue setting up a GF is not.

The people who think it promises support for partner are just plain wrong. They were taught incorrectly, or more likely incorrectly generalized the 1d-(1s)-2s case they were taught which does guarantee support to an auction where it doesn't apply, because you have a simple raise to invite and a lack of way to force holding just hearts, or no real fit and no stopper to just jump to 3nt.

 

The cue in this position showing some GF I would take as 99.999% standard among decent players. I would not ever bother even discussing it when forming a new partnership, it's a given. If a person thought it showed diamond support, then to me this is just a novice/low intermediate who was taught incorrectly, and if I were playing with them I would teach them the correct meaning.

There are dozens upon dozens of conventions that I would never assume were on without discussion. But not this one.

 

Default conventions also vary considerably based on the level of partner you are playing with. In the U.S., if I was drafted as a pickup partner for any advanced player, not having a ton of time to discuss, for example I'd assume 1c-(2c) as Michaels cue automatically. But not if I was paired with a beginner with like 5 masterpoints.

[kingfish]

Many conventions are optional. This sort of cue setting up a GF is not.

The people who think it promises support for partner are just plain wrong. They were taught incorrectly, or more likely generalized the 1d-(1s)-2s case which does guarantee support to an auction where it doesn't apply, because you have a simple raise to invite and a lack of way to force holding just hearts, or no real fit and no stopper to just jump to 3nt.

 

The cue in this position showing some GF I would take as 99.999% standard among decent players. I would not ever bother even discussing it when forming a new partnership, it's a given. If a person thought it showed diamond support, then to me this is just a novice/low intermediate who was taught incorrectly, and if I were playing with them I would teach them the correct meaning.

There are dozens upon dozens of conventions that I would never assume were on without discussion. But not this one.

 

Thank you.