BPO-002D

[whereagles]

If you "seize" captaincy, forgoing the opportunity to show 6 solid Diamonds you give up on any chance at an intelligent exploration of 7NT as a final contract...

1. Maybe you play it differently, but for me the 4D rebid does not have to show AKQ. AQJxxx and a 4-loser hand is enough. But ok, this isn't that relevant.

 

2. If your side has all the keycards, you can count 13 tricks in NT: 6 diams + 4 spades + 1 club + 2 hearts. You don't need no "intelligent exploration" and can afford to take charge. No need to complicate matters :D

 

3. The only worrisome thing about the hand is, as Jlall said, the possibility of going down opposite a 1 keycard response, which is a fair possibility. My point is I am willing to risk going down in 5S because "bidding my hand" might not be enough to encourage the weak hand to go to slam. Suppose pard has

 

AKxx

xxx

xx

xxxx

 

and expects a 4-loser hand across. He has only 2 cover cards. Is pard really supposed to drive on to slam on this? It takes a lot of guts and guesswork to do it (after all, opener has a THREE loser hand, not 4). Besides, even if he guesses to go on, what will he bid after 4D?? He has no cue available and is kinda "endplayed" into bidding a discouraging 4S.

 

Anyway, despite of the dangers, I still bid 4NT.

[Chamaco]

BPO-002D

 

4♦

 

SOLID 6-7 card Diamond suit with 4 card Spade support:

Textbook example...

Does it promise/deny club control ?

 

responder might hold AK of spades but be worried of side controls, no?

 

I agree that in this specific hand it probably does not matter (I guess opener will rebid ebven if responder signs off in 4S), but in other hands, it seems to me that it might be important to have specific agreements on whether 4D shows/denies club control...

[Pipo]

4♣

 

Very difficult. I think I am a bit too strong for a 4♦-bid and 4NT may get me to high.

 

For slam, I like partner to have either ♣-ace and a good spade suit or a very strong spade suit. I hope partner will make a positive move with these holdings after a 4♣-bid.

 

If I bid 4♦ partner might bid with KQ of clubs to a hopeless slam.

[Fluffy]

I voted 4NT because thre is no way I will stop below the 5 level anyway.

 

So the real problem is: will 4♦ or 4NT directly suggest that after 5♥ response to blackwood 6♦ i only a proposition to play, and not an imposition?.

[hrothgar]

2. If your side has all the keycards, you can count 13 tricks in NT: 6 diams + 4 spades + 1 club + 2 hearts. You don't need no "intelligent exploration" and can afford to take charge. No need to complicate matters :P

You can only guarantee 6 Diamond tricks in NT if partner has a fit. If partner tables a Diamond void or even a stiff, its imperative to declare the contract in Spades...

[hrothgar]

I don't think its unreasonable at all to not be willing to drive to the 5 level. You have no 5 level safety opposite ONE keycard. Opposite NO keycards you have no hope of making anything at the 5 level. Opposite 2 keycards alot of the time partner will be able to make a slam move over a 4m bid. Admittedly he won't always be able to and you can miss some perfecta slams but aiming for pard to have both 2 keycards and not enough to make a move over a 4 of a minor bid aims at a pretty small target considering you are going to lose whenever pard has no keycards and alot of the time he has 1 keycard which seems alot more frequent. It's not like he promised the world over there to respond to your 1D opener.

I actaully think that a 4♦ rebid caters to a lot of different hand types.

 

1. Holding absolute crap, partner can signoff in 4♠. I will respect this signoff and pass.

 

2. Holding a strong hand, parter can establish captaincy and trot out his choice of slam tools to investigate level an strain.

 

3. Holding an intermediate hand, partner with rebid 4♥. Note that this bid should be used as "Last Train" and not a cue bid.

[Gerben42]

I think 4♦ should show 4252. A good way to solve this is 2♥ as a Multi-Reverse.

 

For the time being I bid 4♣.

[P_Marlowe]

4D.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[whereagles]

2. Holding a strong hand, parter can establish captaincy and trot out his choice of slam tools to investigate level an strain.

Sorry to bother you again, but how can pard be strong when you hold that rock-crusher??

[mike777]

The 4nt bidders bring up a very valid issue. What are we 4c or 4d bidders going to do over 4s?

 

Let's see what our 4s bidder will think our minimum or maximum for our bids are.

 

Hopefully the 4d bidders will expand on their comments and tell us some minimum or maximum hands for 4D.

 

As a 4c bidder here is one take:

Maximum= I may have 20 hpc and a void in clubs.

Minimum= maybe around 16hcp with a void or 17 with a stiff

note on the below minimum example I have no t or 9's.

 

 

 

QXXX

AKXX

AKXXX

void

 

So if P can only bid 4s across from a more average holding by me then I will pass.

[Chamaco]

My personal idea of 4C is to set explicitly trump before asking keycards :-)

 

I do not think it's obvious that 4NT is RKCB for last suit bid, at least not everynody plays that way.

 

So I use a setting-trump bid followed by keycard ask.

If 4NT were *FOR SURE* RKCB in last suit, then I might bid it right away.

 

Yes I know not very elegant but practical :blink:

[hrothgar]

2.  Holding a strong hand, parter can establish captaincy and trot out his choice of slam tools to investigate level an strain.

Sorry to bother you again, but how can pard be strong when you hold that rock-crusher??

It has to do with math

I doubt that you'd understand...

 

With this said and done, you might want to review some basic texts by Mike Lawrence and the like...

 

Focus ideas like the "core" and how relative strength is plastic

[pclayton]

I don't think its unreasonable at all to not be willing to drive to the 5 level. You have no 5 level safety opposite ONE keycard. Opposite NO keycards you have no hope of making anything at the 5 level. Opposite 2 keycards alot of the time partner will be able to make a slam move over a 4m bid. Admittedly he won't always be able to and you can miss some perfecta slams but aiming for pard to have both 2 keycards and not enough to make a move over a 4 of a minor bid aims at a pretty small target considering you are going to lose whenever pard has no keycards and alot of the time he has 1 keycard which seems alot more frequent. It's not like he promised the world over there to respond to your 1D opener.

We're all guessing to an extent. If pard holds two key cards, slam could hinge on partner holding the ♠9 (A9xx) - slam is marginal, ♠97 - slam is OK or the ♠98 (A98x) - slam is excellent.

 

If pard has only one (or no) key card, and we subside at the 5 level, we are on a hook at the worst, and a subset of these hands aren't even making 4.

 

Playing Justin's methods, where one responds on as little as a three count, I feel much less confident about 4N. We use a lighter 2♣ opening (this hand qualifies too), so we don't have the need to respond on drek to protect pard.

 

I just don't think that pard will make a slam move holding any two key cards after I splinter. I wouldn't. And I don't think that ♠AK, ♠A/♣A, ♠K/♣A represents a small 'target' here.

 

A strong club pair would have no problem with this hand. If pard gave a positive response, they could initiate a low level trump ask.

 

If you choose to splinter, you pretty much have to live with 4♠.

 

There was a BW editorial a few months ago that specifically discussed "planning" an auction like this that included further action over a 4♠ signoff, no matter how quick the 4♠ call comes out partner's bidding box. Supposedly, this would get you off the ethical 'hook' over pard's slow 4♠ call.

[Blofeld]

My 4♣ splinter has forced to game even opposite a minimum hand with wasted values in clubs. Opposite a non-minimum or one without wasted club values, therefore, I expect partner to bid something other than 4♠. The entire point of the splinter is to get an evaluation of partner's hand in light of the club singleton. If I hear 4♠ then I'll happily pass that.

[luke warm]

i have to admit i'd bid 4nt over partner's 4S... what have i lost relative to the original 4nt bidders? now partner can (maybe) reevaluate his hand in light of my shortness, should i sign off in 5S

[mike777]

Well I think with 2 keycards p has got to speak up. Esp. if we respond lite. Heck Kokish style may have

 

xxxxx

xxx

void

xxxxx

 

Do you want to play in 1D or 4s or 5s?

[luis]

I'm following this close and I'm very interested with all the bids and ideas posted. I had a creative moment when answering this hand so I'm probably going to score 0 but after this discussion I feel quite happy with my selection.

 

For the record I think 4♦ is bad and I prefer 2♥ to 4♣ but I bid something else so....

 

(You'll see soon)

[inquiry]

I'm following this close and I'm very interested with all the bids and ideas posted. I had a creative moment when answering this hand so I'm probably going to score 0 but after this discussion I feel quite happy with my selection.

 

For the record I think 4♦ is bad and I prefer 2♥ to 4♣ but I bid something else so....

 

(You'll see soon)

Yes, luis came up with a creative choice on this one... and yes, it will not receive a high score, but it probably deserves a very high one... I will need to refelct upon it some more.

 

Ben

[hrothgar]

I'm following this close and I'm very interested with all the bids and ideas posted. I had a creative moment when answering this hand so I'm probably going to score 0 but after this discussion I feel quite happy with my selection.

 

For the record I think 4♦ is bad and I prefer 2♥ to 4♣

I'll repeat again that I consider 4♦ to be the only logical choice... If players aren't going to use a 4♦ rebid with this hand, then they should damn well reassign the meaning of the 4♦ rebid. I understand that some players are fixating on the fact that opener holds the AK of Hearts; fearing that responder won't be able to make a sensible rebid. However, this is (should be) a non-issue.

 

First and foremost, the 4♦ bidder could easily hold a a singleton or even a void in Hearts. In this case, a holding like xxxx in responder's hand is golden and not necessarily a detriment. Accordingly, responder's 4♥ advance should NOT show a Heart control. As I noted earlier, this bid should be used as Last train or something similar.. If you don't like the Last Train interpretation, than it must be better to ask via a Control Asking Bid rather than show...

 

The following type of response structure problable makes sense:

 

55♠ = trump quality ask type 2

5♥ = trump quality ask type 2

5♦ = Control asking bid in Hearts

5♣ = Control asking bid in Clubs

4NT = RKCB for Spades (Diamonds don't count)

4♠ = Signoff

4♥ = Last train

[Al_U_Card]

Would not 4S show a hand that if Pard has anything more than 4S with 8 hcp then he will ask for Keycards or if he has 2 losers anywhere then q-bid controls or bid 5S as no problem with S but needs help outside. This obviates the need for special agreements on splinters, own suit jumps etc. Based on the trump fit and your 4 loser hand, his response could be on a 10 loser 4-3-3-3 piece of cheese and 4S is the limit.

[Fluffy]

I found this hand kinda fun because I held this 2 weeks ago:

 

♠Q10xx

♥AKQJ109xx

♦AK

♣-

 

 

opened 1♥, partner answered 1♠, and since we didn't play exclusion I jsut bid 5NT, going 2 off to 6♥ when opponent found a singleton ♠ lead to teh Ace, King and a ruff. Still I think my 5NT bid was correct :-P.

[luis]

There was a very similar hand in our South American championship two years ago.

 

North held:

AJxx

AKQxxx

AKx

-

 

And south held:

KQTxxx

xx

xx

xxx

 

In the women tables the bidding was identical at both tables:

1♥ - pass - pass -pass

Making 7 No Swing!

 

In the men tables the bidding was identical at both tables:

1♥ - 1♠

5NT - 7♠

Making, No swing!

 

Interesting isn't it?

[luke warm]

wow... 'interesting' is one word for it... would be very hard for me to pass 1H...

[mike777]

[hv=d=s&v=e&s=sqt42hakdakq954ct]133|100|Scoring: IMP

BPO-002D

S----------W---------- N----------E

1♦…………..Pass…………1♠…….…..Pass

? your bid

[/hv]

Here is a typical minimum for 4D

KQ85

7

AQJT84

63

[hrothgar]

Dealer: South Vul: EW Scoring: IMP

♠ QT42 ♥ AK ♦ AKQ954 ♣ T

BPO-002D S----------W---------- N----------E 1♦…………..Pass…………1♠…….…..Pass ? your bid

Here is a typical minimum for 4D

KQ85

7

AQJT84

63

4♦ explictly promises a solid Diamond suit...