The 5 level Who owns it?

[PhilG007]

A common problem during competitive auctions is whether or not to come compete to the 5 level

This is a typical example ;-

North East South West

1D 1H 1S 3H

3S 4H 4S P

P ?

 

What do you do as East ? Do you pass or press on to 5!H ? Does the vulnerability influence your decision?

Does the scoring come into your reckoning?.

On the above auction, what would be your action when playing

A) Match Point Pairs

B) IMPS

C) Board-a-Match(Teams)

D) Rubber Bridge.

[sfi]

I probably should look at my hand at some point in the auction. Now seems like a good time.

[masse24]

I probably should look at my hand at some point in the auction. Now seems like a good time.

Subtle. :blink:

[PhilG007]

I probably should look at my hand at some point in the auction. Now seems like a good time.

 

Now that you've looked at your hand,care to give a point of view?)

[sfi]

Now that you've looked at your hand,care to give a point of view?)

I'm still in the dark about my hand, but I'm happy to wait.

[masse24]

I'm still in the dark about my hand, but I'm happy to wait.

You may need to explain it to him. :blink:

[RuflRabbit]

How do you play 3!H?

[masse24]

Now that you've looked at your hand,care to give a point of view?)

The decision is dependent on the hand you hold, Phil. For example, with this hand:

xxxxxxxxxxxxx, I absolutely pass.

 

While with this hand:

xxxxxxxxxxxxx, I compete to the 5-level.

 

Additionally, with the following hand:

xxxxxxxxxxxxx, I probably bid slam.

 

So as you can plainly see, it very much depends on the cards you hold. I hope this clarifies things.

[ahydra]

As others have pointed out: did you mean to give a hand?

 

In general principle terms: bidding on is more attractive when you have a void in their suit, or when you have a double-fit, and obviously when you're not vul and they are.

 

The form of scoring is an interesting one. Suppose you're sacking in 5H vs their 4S at IMPs at equal vul:

 

if you go 2 off (good sac), you win 3

if you go 3 off (bad sac), you lose 2 if NV and 5 if VUL

So you need only 40% odds of a good sac NV, and 63% VUL.

 

So theoretically, you should sac quite often NV vs NV at teams, but with one big caveat: be sure they're making their contract first! Rubber bridge may have other factors such as if they are about to win the rubber. Pairs/BAM it's a 50/50.

 

ahydra

[blackshoe]

According to Nigel Guthrie, the five level belongs to him.

[barmar]

According to Nigel Guthrie, the five level belongs to him.

The maxim "the five level belongs to the opponents" generally applies when the opponents have bid on the 5 level and you're thinking of competing over it, not when considering bidding 5 over 4.

[pescetom]

The maxim "the five level belongs to the opponents" generally applies when the opponents have bid on the 5 level and you're thinking of competing over it, not when considering bidding 5 over 4.

 

That's what Ed Manfield was saying at any rate. Although in that case you could also say that "the three level belongs to the opponents" with almost the same conviction, or so it seems to me.

[barmar]

That's what Ed Manfield was saying at any rate. Although in that case you could also say that "the three level belongs to the opponents" with almost the same conviction, or so it seems to me.

Indeed, it often does, although the LOTT provides some help in deciding whether it's true in a particular case.

[KingCovert]

This decision is always going to be made by combining multiple considerations. If it is Swiss Teams, the state of the match could be a consideration, the vulnerability, whether partner's pass was a forcing pass and thus whether it shows some ability to defend 4♠. Was 3♥ weak? If so, what is our agreement on that pass? Does it show no ability to defend, but, partner is checking back with me instead of unilaterally bidding at the 5-level when his/her hand is described?

 

Ultimately, it's just going to come down to partner's tendencies, what kind of hand I should expect here, and most importantly as others have mentioned, the 13 cards that I am holding. No one here can give you much more than very vague commentary without sample hands to be more instructive with...

 

Hope it helps.

[PhilG007]

I'm still in the dark about my hand, but I'm happy to wait.

 

In other words,you're dodging the question and not prepared to commit yourself Fair do

[mikeh]

Ok, let's assume that the OP was really asking what factors one considers in bidding at the 5-level after the opps bid 4S, when we competed to 4H.

 

On his example auction, with a good partner, the answer is: never.

 

I assume that 3H was preemptive. If not, then my views may change, but most would play it as preemptive.

 

So: if we had extra shape, we would have bid 4H right away. One always, strives to bid the limit of a preemptive hand as soon as possible. Thus we do not hold a hand with which we intended, if need be, to compete to 4H.

 

Having described our hand, with hour first call, we stay mute thereafter unless one of two situations arise.

 

In the first one, partner makes a call that asks our views. Here, for example, we'd want to be at the 5-level if we have a double-fit, or partner has extreme shape. He knows his shape, so if, opposite our 3H call, he wants to be 5H over 4S, he can bid it. More commonly, he doesn't know...so he seeks our input by bidding something between 3S and 4H. With, say,1=6=2=4, and some club values, he'd bid 4C. Now, if we happen to have values and length in clubs, we bid 5H (or once in a blue moon with really long clubs, 5C). Otherwise we pass.

 

The other exception is when we have completely unexpected defence: say we hold KQ109 in spades....unlikely, yes, but maybe partner is void. Now we can double!

 

On balance, however, I return to my main point: once one has described one's hand below game, one passes thereafter unless partner involves you or you have exceptional and surprising defence.

[rmnka447]

A few things about deciding to push to the 5 level --

 

The one who goes ought to have shortness (stiff or void) in the opponents suit or be able to be sure partner is short to limit losers there,

 

You can consider "taking the push" with a big 2 suited fit with partner, like 2=4=1=6 opposite the hand mikeh posited (1=6=2=4) bidding 4 ♣ on, and,

 

You can consider "taking the push" with a big trump fit and complementary distribution, like 3=5=4=1 opposite mikeh's 4 ♣ hand.

 

One thing to be aware of and concerned about in competitive auctions (and most especially at IMPS) is pushing the opponent's into a makeable game contract they otherwise wouldn't have bid. Another thing is overbidding when the opponents are going down. These really are something you learn to judge with playing experience

[mikeh]

My point about overcaller being able to ask our opinion is related to the often misunderstood concept of captaincy.

 

Here, the 4H bidder assumed captaincy: the 3H bidder has no rights in this auction, other than the extremely rare penalty double.

 

Overcaller is assumed to have anticipated that the opps would bid game, and to have made his 4H call expecting that a decision to save or penalize, or simply defend would be his (again, a constant refrain is that advancer has the option of doubling but this should be on an exceptional trump holding).

 

The 3H bid, describing one's hand within narrow constraints and having no constructive overtones, left it to overcaller what to do.....but overcaller can transfer the captaincy by inviting an opinion via a descriptive 4m call.

 

If I ever found myself, in the given example sequence where I bid 3H, weak, over RHO's 1S, of even thinking about bidding over 4S that would be (a) an admission that I misbid the first time and (b) at the least the beginning of serious strain if I were playing with one of my two regular partners. Partner knows what he bid 4H on and, more importantly, why he bid it and what he intended to do if they bid 4S: and he wasn't asking me for my opinion.

 

With all respect for those who have offered suggestions as to what to look for in your hand, as a guide to bidding or passing: they are, in my opinion, mistaken. 3H renounced any intention of ever bidding an unsolicited 5H. If you think your hand merits it, you made a bad bid last time.

[Stephen Tu]

Mike: ???

Look at the original question. It's the overcaller with the decision to make, not the 3H raiser. I agree 3H bidder isn't ever doing anything. Everyone else is saying factors for what the overcaller to decide what to do. I think it's perfectly normal for overcaller to have a decision between pass/5H/dbl, as 4H could have been bid for any number of reasons, as overcaller has a much wider range of HCP & shape compared to the raiser.

 

 

I wonder if Phil has realized yet that he never posted the actual hand held ...

[mikeh]

Mike: ???

Look at the original question. It's the overcaller with the decision to make, not the 3H raiser. I agree 3H bidder isn't ever doing anything. Everyone else is saying factors for what the overcaller to decide what to do. I think it's perfectly normal for overcaller to have a decision between pass/5H/dbl, as 4H could have been bid for any number of reasons, as overcaller has a much wider range of HCP & shape compared to the raiser.

 

 

I wonder if Phil has yet to realize he never posted the actual hand held ...

Me bad. There I go talking about other peoples’s poor reading and I make a blunder like that😛

[Vampyr]

I am going to double and lead ace and a trump.

[manudude03]

Maybe some of the high-level cheats know what to do without looking at their hand, the rest of us mere mortals don't.

 

edit: Incidentally this reminds me of when I played my first ever congress. I was a beginner at the time and being tired, an opp said nice hand. It didn't occur to me she meant the cards I held!

[nige1]

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1d1h1s3h3s4h4spp?]200|200|PhilG007 'What do you do as East ? Do you pass or press on to 5♥ ? Does the vulnerability influence your decision? Does the scoring come into your reckoning?. On the above auction, what would be your action when playing A) Match Point Pairs B) IMPS C) Board-a-Match(Teams) D) Rubber Bridge'

++++++++++++++++++

Vulnerability, scoring-method, bidding understandings, and your hand all influence your decision. You might even give up on the penalty double and, instead, agree that double strongly suggests that partner bid on, unless he has extra defence. Long ♥s, your ♦ and ♠ holdings (e.g. ♠xxx or ♠ shortage) might suggest a sacrifice). Vulnerable, you are wary of sacrificing, but non-vulnerable, you are keen to sacrifice, especially at pairs or BAM. At cut-in rubber-bridge, with a poor partner, you are loth to sacrifice.[/hv]