Continuations after our Redouble

[Tramticket]

[hv=pc=n&w=sjhkj52dqj843ca72&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=p1sdrp4sp]133|200[/hv]

 

IMPs

 

(1) Do you agree with the initial Redouble?

 

(2) What do you expect partner to hold for this jump to 4♠?

 

We have agreed that 2♠ from partner would have been non-forcing showing a minimum opening. But have had no discussions about other bids. What should be the meaning of:

 

(3) 3♠? (is it forcing?)

 

(4) Passing initially then bidding 4♠?

 

(5) 2♣?

 

(6) 3♣?

 

(7) No trump bids?

 

[sorry - intended to post this in I/A forum]

[pescetom]

What would have been the meaning of 1NT or 2NT instead of XX ?

[FelicityR]

Agree totally with initial redouble: 10+ HCPs with no interest in partner's suit, looking to penalise opponents. As for variations of partner rebidding ♠s or passing and rebidding ♠s other than at the 2 level, then even I am clueless as I haven't encountered this situation - to my knowledge - ever at the bridge table in over 40 years of playing.

 

Here, I'm passing 4♠ as partner knows what you have, and you haven't got any extras to tell him/her about.

[Tramticket]

What would have been the meaning of 1NT or 2NT instead of XX ?

 

1NT is natural 8-10, balanced. 2NT is undiscussed - which means natural in the absence of any other agreement.

[HardVector]

Most people use 2n here as Jordan, which is a limit raise+ in partner's suit. I completely agree with the XX, especially since they are about to compete at the 2 level in a vulnerable auction. I can envision at least +500 wherever they go and I'm hopeful for more. The only hand that makes sense for partner, is a hand they messed up with the first bid. They should have opened 2s or 3s and got too excited with it.

[pescetom]

Most people use 2n here as Jordan, which is a limit raise+ in partner's suit. I completely agree with the XX, especially since they are about to compete at the 2 level in a vulnerable auction.

 

I play 2NT that way too, but suspected that it might be natural here. If so, and that also implies some kind of hearts stop, then I wouldn't discard it automatically. More than anything I wondered if partner would infer anything from the non-use of a natural 2NT, but it sounds like he would not if the bid is undiscussed.

[apollo1201]

It is (almost) the textbook hand for XX.

 

Partner’s bids should show weakness (while pass and rebid are at least an average + opening hand). To answer your questions:

 

- I guess partner has a 7 or 8-cd suit that hesitated between opening at the 1 or 4 level, probably light in HCP (SAK or AKQ plus a side goodie), and the XX convinced him that 4S would be making so wanted to bid them ASAP; I now pass, lacking aces to be looking for 6

 

- 3S bid undiscussed, there could be merit for having it forcing, close to a 2C opening (strong two with 8 tricks), setting trumps and so on, but it is happening often given a X and XX?

 

- pass then 4S is stronger than the direct 4S I think, give him a goodie more than the direct 4S, or a goodie less than the strong Acol?

 

- direct 2C/3C are for weak 2-suiters, at the 2-level 55, and freakier at the 3 level?

 

- NT bids: should be avoided

 

All this is of course only valid for opening in 1st/2nd.

[Vampyr]

Most people use 2n here as Jordan, which is a limit raise+ in partner's suit.

 

I would assume this even if undiscussed.

[pescetom]

I would assume this even if undiscussed.

 

Even with someone from Kent?

Would you also assume that 1♠ (p) 2NT undiscussed was a limit raise?

[Vampyr]

Even with someone from Kent?

 

Yes.

 

Would you also assume that 1♠ (p) 2NT undiscussed was a limit raise?

 

No, this is not universal like the above.

[HardVector]

Even with someone from Kent?

Would you also assume that 1♠ (p) 2NT undiscussed was a limit raise?

No. That looks like Jacoby 2n, GF with spade support. Of course, if I just sat down and started playing with someone without coming up with some basic idea of their bidding structure, I would assume vanilla Goren. That would make 2n natural, balanced, GF.

[Tramticket]

Most people use 2n here as Jordan, which is a limit raise+ in partner's suit.

 

Yes, missed the obvious answer (though I've never heard it called Jordan).

[heart76]

Opener is not forced to bid, so 4S has to be weak with long spades.

Any other hand should pass first, except when minimum and unbalanced.

At least this would be consistent with the "mixed" purpose of the XX and would force opponents to show a suit.

[msjennifer]

Sir,Personally I can not visualise a hand holding which the opener bids FOUR spade in this situation.I think that there is a grave misunderstanding about the RD,Althogh I consider the RD as an acceptable bid but the defensive value of the hand is not all that good if RHO bids 2C (if it goes RD-P-P-2C).Before making xx I feel one should consider how one is going to describe this holding to partner.I,personally ,feel that if one is playing negative doubles and mandatory reopening (in the absence of a negative double). then why not PASS and take the decision on the next round ?

[nekthen]

1 Absolutely textbook xx

 

2 4♠ is a hand with 7+ suit that was too good to preempt as opener. Partner knows the scoring and thinks that 620 is a better score than what can be achieved doubling opps at the 2 level.

eg ♠AKQJxxx xx xx Kx

If 4♠ fails he should apologise to partner and move on.

 

3-6 I expect partner to pass with any other hand. The redouble is designed to put opps on the ropes, bidding lets them off

 

If East bids a red suit I will double. If East bids 2♣, I pass in the hope that partner can double

 

Dealer's second pass is telling. He cannot pick a suit so he has 4-5♠ and no other 4 card suit

[msjennifer]

1 Absolutely textbook xx

 

2 4♠ is a hand with 7+ suit that was too good to preempt as opener. Partner knows the scoring and thinks that 620 is a better score than what can be achieved doubling opps at the 2 level.

eg ♠AKQJxxx xx xx Kx

If 4♠ fails he should apologise to partner and move on.

 

3-6 I expect partner to pass with any other hand. The redouble is designed to put opps on the ropes, bidding lets them off

 

If East bids a red suit I will double. If East bids 2♣, I pass in the hope that partner can double

 

Dealer's second pass is telling. He cannot pick a suit so he has 4-5♠ and no other 4 card suit

SIR,he just can't have SJ as then we shall have to ask for a new pack.AND personally I feel such a hand shall be opened 4S .Pray what shall partner do on KQxxx-xxx-AKx-xx after you pass 2C and it goes-PASS-? Should he tamely PASS or double?.or PERHAPS you suggest bid 2D.(2) IF over the Redbl LHO bids 2C and it goes P-P-?

[Tramticket]

The full deal and auction:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=st64haq94dak92ct5&w=sjhkj52dqj843ca72&n=s93h863dt765cq986&e=sakq8752ht7dckj43&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=p1sdrp4sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Partner made 12 tricks, but the cards were lying kindly. North/South might scramble five or six tricks in a diamond contract.

 

I never seriously considered any bid but pass. But I did wonder how much extra I would need to explore a slam.

 

It didn't matter when we came to score up - our result was never going to have much influence on the result. How to you compete with a score of 2,720 (1♠ Redoubled making 12 tricks)!!! I will keep the names of our teammates secret to protect the guilty!

[Vampyr]

I,personally ,feel that if one is playing negative doubles and mandatory reopening (in the absence of a negative double). then why not PASS and take the decision on the next round ?

 

Mandatory? This is called balancing them into game... but anyway there has not been and cannot be a negative double in this auction.

[nekthen]

SIR,he just can't have SJ as then we shall have to ask for a new pack.AND personally I feel such a hand shall be opened 4S .Pray what shall partner do on KQxxx-xxx-AKx-xx after you pass 2C and it goes-PASS-? Should he tamely PASS or double?.or PERHAPS you suggest bid 2D.(2) IF over the Redbl LHO bids 2C and it goes P-P-?

 

My partner will open 1N, but lets assume we play strong NT. they have found an 8 card fit presumably South has x xxxx xxx xxxxx

and North xxxx xxx xxx xxx There are not enough Spades! Someone is lying, so actually partner cannot have this "worst case scenario" hand

 

The actual hand shown now represents appalling bidding by NS! A double with 13 hcp and a 3442 shape is just wrong and passing the xx with two 4 card suits is equally bad. Neither would be my partner for long.

[smerriman]

Pray what shall partner do on KQxxx-xxx-AKx-xx after you pass 2C and it goes-PASS-? Should he tamely PASS or double?.or PERHAPS you suggest bid 2D.(2) IF over the Redbl LHO bids 2C and it goes P-P-?

A pass of 2♣ is 100% forcing, so partner can't pass. Your example isn't possible as mentioned above, but if neither player is capable of doubling 2♣, then you must surely have a fit elsewhere so there's no risk in bidding even a 3 card suit if you have to.

[miamijd]

This is a bit off-topic, but someone started asking about what 1NT would mean, so I will venture off on a slight tangent.

 

After 1M (x), you really should have methods. Probably the most popular method is transfers. Thus, over 1S, you have something like the following:

 

Pass: Either a hand that doesn't have a bid OR a decent hand that wants to penalize the opponents. If it's the latter, you will X on your next turn.

 

XX: a hand where you would have bid 1NT if not playing transfers. Probably 7-9 with no spade support.

 

1NT: requests partner to bid 2C, after which you can pass, go back to 2S with 2 of them and a club suit, or bid on with a good hand

 

2C: like 1NT, but with diamonds.

 

2H: A decent three-card spade raise (some play decent 3-4 card spade raise)

 

2S: A subminimum three-card spade raise (probably 0-5 NV and 4-6 V)

 

2NT/3C/3D/3H: All show trump support. One of these bids (probably 3H) is going to be the 4-card mixed raise. I like 2NT as GF with 4; 3C as limit raise with 4; and 3D as limit raise OR BETTER with 3. But lots of treatments are possible. After a 1H opener, 2S can join this team and 3H can drop out (although then you have to give up the 2S weak bid over the X, which rarely comes up).

 

3S: preemptive with generally 4

 

3NT: GF with unidentified shortness (4C asks)

 

4C/D: take your pick of several treatments

 

4H: 5+ spades; preempt with some defense

 

4S: 5+ spades; preempt with no defense

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Vampyr]

This is a bit off-topic, but someone started asking about what 1NT would mean, so I will venture off on a slight tangent.

 

After 1M (x), you really should have methods. Probably the most popular method is transfers. Thus, over 1S, you have something like the following:

 

Pass: Either a hand that doesn't have a bid OR a decent hand that wants to penalize the opponents. If it's the latter, you will X on your next turn.

 

XX: a hand where you would have bid 1NT if not playing transfers. Probably 7-9 with no spade support.

 

1NT: requests partner to bid 2C, after which you can pass, go back to 2S with 2 of them and a club suit, or bid on with a good hand

 

2C: like 1NT, but with diamonds.

 

2H: A decent three-card spade raise (some play decent 3-4 card spade raise)

 

2S: A subminimum three-card spade raise (probably 0-5 NV and 4-6 V)

 

2NT/3C/3D/3H: All show trump support. One of these bids (probably 3H) is going to be the 4-card mixed raise. I like 2NT as GF with 4; 3C as limit raise with 4; and 3D as limit raise OR BETTER with 3. But lots of treatments are possible. After a 1H opener, 2S can join this team and 3H can drop out (although then you have to give up the 2S weak bid over the X, which rarely comes up).

 

3S: preemptive with generally 4

 

3NT: GF with unidentified shortness (4C asks)

 

4C/D: take your pick of several treatments

 

4H: 5+ spades; preempt with some defense

 

4S: 5+ spades; preempt with no defense

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

I like transfers but I prefer a “real” redouble. Now you don’t have to pass and put down the dummy in 1♠X, which is probably not the best score available.