Can you bid this with certainty ?

[rhm]

♦

Is 2D gf? If not, seems to me that it may be more effective to have opener, at his first turn indicate whether he would accept a limit raise. That’s what we do (see my post early in the thread). There’s lots of room thereafter to show shape...indeed, both players can show shortness, depending on opener’s first rebid.

 

If 2D is gf, then your scheme seems very logical.

Inverted minor suit raises are not limited in the first place, so accepting or declining a limit raise is not as straightforward over a minor than a major.

I do this indirectly, but I do not see why opener needs to do this on his first rebid. Postponing the decision may give you more information before you decide what your hand is worth.

After 1♦-2♦ the only partial we can stop in is 3♦.

Anyone of the partnership, who bids 3♦, suggests this as a resting place and by inference shows a minimum hand or a hand having got worse given the auction so far.

If you bid something else, the auction either becomes game forcing or if below 3♦ remains forcing, suggesting game (or more).

1♦-2♦-3♦ shows total balanced crap by opener, so 1♦-2♦-2♥ (balanced or semi-balanced) could be a minimum hand but not total crap. Opener is likely to be 12-14 or 18-19.

 

Generally after a fit is found I consider showing distribution and whether we have duplication of values or not more important than anything else.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[TomSawyer4]

That is an opening bid to 99.999% of the population, it's an opening bid to me without ♣K, but I'm fairly extreme, NOBODY passes 13 counts these days whatever they are

 

repeating the hand at issue: xxxx AJx KQxxx K

 

The issue at hand is Goren. Goren did not give full credit for singleton kings.

 

Nobody? I'm proud to be part of the 00.001%, and I would not normally open this hand in any position.

[chasetb]

repeating the hand at issue: xxxx AJx KQxxx K

 

The issue at hand is Goren. Goren did not give full credit for singleton kings.

 

Nobody? I'm proud to be part of the 00.001%, and I would not normally open this hand in any position.

So you are proud that you don't know Goren? I am a systems geek, and I can assure you 100% that he opens that hand.

This is taken from pages 9 and 10 of his book Point Count Bidding in Contract Bridge ©1949, 1950, 1954, 1958.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ace = 4 / King = 3 / Queen = 2 / Jack = 1 --> K, Q(x), and J(x) should be discounted a point.

 

Add 3 points for a void, 2 points for each singleton, and 1 point for each doubleton.

 

13 points is optional for opening, but if you do, have a good rebid and at least 2 Quick Tricks. If your hand contains 14 points it must be opened!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now count your points. I count 13 HCP + 1 point for K (2-1) = 14 points!!!

 

I would also bet money that Roth-Stone opens this hand in any seat because of how easy the bidding is, and they were arguably the most conservative of the top pairs of the 50's and 60's.

[TomSawyer4]

So you are proud that you don't know Goren? I am a systems geek, and I can assure you 100% that he opens that hand.

This is taken from pages 9 and 10 of his book Point Count Bidding in Contract Bridge ©1949, 1950, 1954, 1958.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ace = 4 / King = 3 / Queen = 2 / Jack = 1 --> K, Q(x), and J(x) should be discounted a point.

 

Add 3 points for a void, 2 points for each singleton, and 1 point for each doubleton.

 

13 points is optional for opening, but if you do, have a good rebid and at least 2 Quick Tricks. If your hand contains 14 points it must be opened!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now count your points. I count 13 HCP + 1 point for K (2-1) = 14 points!!!

 

I would also bet money that Roth-Stone opens this hand in any seat because of how easy the bidding is, and they were arguably the most conservative of the top pairs of the 50's and 60's.

 

 

 

 

First of all, we're way off topic. You are correct that I have not played Goren since about 1975,

 

By the method you quote the hand adds to 12; Goren required 13. You are scoring double

for the king and the singleton. I don't remember anyone who would have waited for 14.

 

And, I said that I wouldn't open it. I didn't want to talk about this. By the (modified for simplicity) K-S count method I use, the hand is worth 10.75 exactly. Since K-S point count is known to be slightly conservative, I would review a 10.75 hand for redeeming features, for example a five card major and late position.

I don't have to consider whether the presence of a T9 in either of the longer suits matters (see Hardy: Standard Bridge Bidding for the Twenty-First Century, 2000, pp. 11-12) because ten nine combinations are already taken into account.

In this case, the hand is worth 10.75, and there are no redeeming features. I would pass from all positions.

 

I will say nothing further on the topic.

[chasetb]

Snipped just the part I want to respond to.

By the method you quote the hand adds to 12; Goren required 13. You are scoring double

for the king and the singleton. I don't remember anyone who would have waited for 14.

In the book I quoted, Goren specifically counts extra points for short suits, mostly separate from the HCP count (with the exception I noted of K, Q(x), and J(x) losing a point). With the original hand, you have 13 HCP, and you get one d.p. (2 points - 1 point for the singleton King) for a total of 14 points. The very first hand in the book I mentioned is ♠ AJxxx ♥ KQx ♦ Jxxx ♣ K -> surprisingly similar to the hand in the first post.

 

I respect that you have an opinion and won't respond to more posts in this thread, but I wanted to show that the math is correct. I also do believe that not opening that hand will put you at a large disadvantage against almost any group of bridge players. Have a good day.

[MinorKid]

1♦ 2♦ ; 2d inverted minor

4♣ 4NT ; 4c splinter 4n RKCB

5♠ 7♦ ; 5s 2+Q 7d spade loser be discarded and club losers ruffed