Which game 4H/4S is better?

[mayoutu]

What do you bid after partner opens 2♥?

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakqj952hj4da876c&n=shaq7532dt54cqt75&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=2hp]266|200[/hv]

 

I bid 2♠, and partner responded with 3♣. I bid 4♥ and that ended the auction.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakqj952hj4da876c&n=shaq7532dt54cqt75&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=2hp2sp3cp4hppp]266|200[/hv]

 

My partner got a diamond lead, and he made the game. I asked a master, and she said 4♠ is obviously better than 4♥. I am not sure. If North has weak heart suit, it is likely to be useless. My spades can help discard his diamonds or clubs.

 

What do you think? Thanks.

[Tramticket]

What you bid over the 2♥ weak two opening will depend on methods.

 

What does 2♠ mean? (Some play it as forcing, some as invitational, some as a weak sign-off). If you play it as forcing this would seem reasonable. Also what do you play that 3♠ shows? (If it shows a long solid spade suit that might be even better).

 

My choice of final game might depend on what a 2♥ opening looks like for your partnership. If you regularly open 2♥ on poor suits and five-card suits, I might prefer 4♠. If partner's opening shows some suit quality in hearts and 3♣ is a natural second suit, I would choose to play in the known eight-card heart suit.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

4S.

 

You have a running 7 card suit, and in hearts you will only have 6-2,

and the main problem is, that it is quite easy to get cut of from dummy.

Add the possibility, that the weak two is less pure, i.e. the values

are more scattered, you should go for 4S.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[HardVector]

You know your hand will provide tricks in a heart contract. You have no such guarantees about your partner's hand in a spade contract. Give your partner the KQ♥ instead of the AQ, and the opps just have to hold up the ace once to kill your partner's hand. Now you're stuck with 3 diamond losers and a heart loser. Even with the holding your have, if I were east holding the Kxx in hearts, when you run the J, I'd hold up.

[KingCovert]

You know your hand will provide tricks in a heart contract. You have no such guarantees about your partner's hand in a spade contract. Give your partner the KQ♥ instead of the AQ, and the opps just have to hold up the ace once to kill your partner's hand. Now you're stuck with 3 diamond losers and a heart loser. Even with the holding your have, if I were east holding the Kxx in hearts, when you run the J, I'd hold up.

 

I don't agree. That sounds like an oddly specific hand to be worried about when making a decision on this hand. Just for the sake of argument, what happens if, on this hand, your opponent leads a small club while holding KT9X of hearts in the East? Sorry, that was rhetorical, it's almost always entirely hopeless.

 

You can count 9 tricks in spades, and that's in the worst case scenario (presumably 2H in first seat promises 2 honours). As the joke goes, "What do you call a 7 card suit headed by the AKQ? Trump". This is the case 95% of the time. This is not one of those exceptions.

[smerriman]

Some double dummy analysis, for reference.

 

(Assumption: North has exactly 6 hearts with at least two of the top three honors, exactly 4 clubs, at most 2 spades, and at most 9 HCP - didn't want to handle odd 6-5 shapes or whether 10 point hands would open 1♥)

 

Both games are makeable 62% of the time

Both games are unmakeable 10% of the time

Only 4♥ is makeable 12% of the time

Only 4♠ is makeable 16% of the time

 

That suggests it is close, but 4♠ is better.

[mayoutu]

What you bid over the 2♥ weak two opening will depend on methods.

 

What does 2♠ mean? (Some play it as forcing, some as invitational, some as a weak sign-off). If you play it as forcing this would seem reasonable. Also what do you play that 3♠ shows? (If it shows a long solid spade suit that might be even better).

 

My choice of final game might depend on what a 2♥ opening looks like for your partnership. If you regularly open 2♥ on poor suits and five-card suits, I might prefer 4♠. If partner's opening shows some suit quality in hearts and 3♣ is a natural second suit, I would choose to play in the known eight-card heart suit.

 

I use SAYC roughly speaking. 2♠ is forcing. 3♠ after 2♥? I don't know and never used it. I use regular 2♥ opening that includes 6+ hearts and 5-9 HCP for nonvul, 9-12 HCP for vul. Most likely there is Q+ in that suit.

 

I would say 3♣ is natural and describes shape.

[mayoutu]

Hi,

 

4S.

 

You have a running 7 card suit, and in hearts you will only have 6-2,

and the main problem is, that it is quite easy to get cut of from dummy.

Add the possibility, that the weak two is less pure, i.e. the values

are more scattered, you should go for 4S.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

Thank you for the comments. Yes, if the values are in diamonds, 4♠ is perfect. But from the bidding I guess they are likely in hearts and clubs which seem a misfit.

[mayoutu]

Some double dummy analysis, for reference.

 

(Assumption: North has exactly 6 hearts with at least two of the top three honors, exactly 4 clubs, at most 2 spades, and at most 9 HCP - didn't want to handle odd 6-5 shapes or whether 10 point hands would open 1♥)

 

Both games are makeable 62% of the time

Both games are unmakeable 10% of the time

Only 4♥ is makeable 12% of the time

Only 4♠ is makeable 16% of the time

 

That suggests it is close, but 4♠ is better.

 

Very interesting analysis and reasonable outcome. Thanks Smerriman! BTW, what is a typical hand that 4♠ makes but 4♥ fails?

[HardVector]

Just as food for thought, what would you do with AKQxxxx --- Axx Axx if your partner opened 3h? I've actually had these kind of decisions a couple times, and the answer always is, raise to 4h. By the way, it's "What do you call an EIGHT card suit?...Trump". There was never any qualification on the quality of that suit.

[smerriman]

BTW, what is a typical hand that 4♠ makes but 4♥ fails?

Here are some examples.

[mayoutu]

Here are some examples.

 

Thanks that really helps!!