how to bid this

[cencio]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakj942hqda842c82&w=st75ha6dk97ckq954&n=s8hkjt974dqjt6ca7&e=sq63h8532d53cjt63]399|300[/hv]

West declare

[HardVector]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakj942hqda842c82&w=st75ha6dk97ckq954&n=s8hkjt974dqjt6ca7&e=sq63h8532d53cjt63]399|300[/hv]

West declare

You didn't give any vulnerability, but on this hand, I don't think it matters. South's bidding is easier if NS is vulnerable and north is disciplined.

 

1c-1h-p-1s-p-2h-p-3d-p-?

 

I'd probably pass here, but I'm a pessimist. I think 5d depends on perfect cards and is a bit lucky.

[helene_t]

Depends on your agreements about responding to overcalls. Assuming that 1♠ by S would be nonforcing, they might bid

1♥-2♠

3♦-3♠

4♥-pass

 

but it is too easy when seeing all four hands. In practice I might do something less succesful, for example bidding 3NT instead of 4♥ with the North hand.

[dsLawsd]

Hard to say as guessing is involved- but one sequence would be to bid 4♦ and then pass over 4♥ once it is seen that the heart queen is a valuable, working card opposite the expected 6-4 hand.

[Cyberyeti]

Also depends where you are, whether W opens 1♣ or 1N.

 

It's easy over 1N and if you play a 2 suited defence, so that a 2♥ overcall followed by 3♦ is clearly 6-4.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakj942hqda842c82&w=st75ha6dk97ckq954&n=s8hkjt974dqjt6ca7&d=W&a=1C1HP1S(F1)P2DP3C(CUE)P3HP3SP4DP4HPPP]300|300|

Cencio

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

South can make a lucky 6♥ but it's hard enough to contrive a plausible auction to 4♥by North.[/hv]

[miamijd]

Doesn't seem particularly hard. West opens 1C and then:

 

1H 2S(1)

3H 4H

 

(1) 1S in most methods is NF and only shows 9+ or so. 2S is non-forcing but highly invitational, generally showing 14+ or so and a good six-bagger.

 

And no, 6H is not cold. A diamond lead sets it two tricks.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Cyberyeti]

Doesn't seem particularly hard. West opens 1C and then:

 

1H 2S(1)

3H 4H

 

(1) 1S in most methods is NF and only shows 9+ or so. 2S is non-forcing but highly invitational, generally showing 14+ or so and a good six-bagger.

 

And no, 6H is not cold. A diamond lead sets it two tricks.

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

He never claimed 6♥(N) was cold, he claimed it was cold if played by south.

 

Many people play 2♠ as fit so your method is far from universal.

[miamijd]

He never claimed 6♥(N) was cold, he claimed it was cold if played by south.

 

Many people play 2♠ as fit so your method is far from universal.

 

Not sure I know anyone that plays a jump to 2S over a 1H overcall as a fit jump. Maybe that's a British thing? But what's the point of the bid? If you have a fit in hearts with a good hand, just cue-bid to show a limit raise or better and go from there. Why do you need to go trying to find another fit? Fit jumps are only really useful in response to 1 of a minor.

 

You need a bid that shows a good hand with spades.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Cyberyeti]

Not sure I know anyone that plays a jump to 2S over a 1H overcall as a fit jump. Maybe that's a British thing? But what's the point of the bid? If you have a fit in hearts with a good hand, just cue-bid to show a limit raise or better and go from there. Why do you need to go trying to find another fit? Fit jumps are only really useful in response to 1 of a minor.

 

You need a bid that shows a good hand with spades.

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

We actually don't because our overcalls are sounder than most so 1♠ is forcing (we weak jump on air). The reason for playing 2♠ as fit is to allow partner to judge when opener rebids an unpleasantly large number of clubs. KJxxx, Kxxx, xxx, x would be typical so that partner knows whether to bid over 4 or 5♣.

[miamijd]

We actually don't because our overcalls are sounder than most so 1♠ is forcing (we weak jump on air). The reason for playing 2♠ as fit is to allow partner to judge when opener rebids an unpleasantly large number of clubs. KJxxx, Kxxx, xxx, x would be typical so that partner knows whether to bid over 4 or 5♣.

 

If you play 1S as forcing, then you can indeed use 2S as "something else." The modern style is to play that after an overcall, only a cue-bid is forcing.

 

Cheers,

mike

[Cyberyeti]

If you play 1S as forcing, then you can indeed use 2S as "something else." The modern style is to play that after an overcall, only a cue-bid is forcing.

 

Cheers,

mike

 

Really ? I'm not sure I know anybody who would play (1♣)-1♠-2♥ as NF

[pescetom]

Really ? I'm not sure I know anybody who would play (1♣)-1♠-2♥ as NF

For me it's constructive and does not deny invitational values, but NF. Only the cue is forcing.

[Cyberyeti]

For me it's constructive and does not deny invitational values, but NF. Only the cue is forcing.

 

Wow so (1♣)-1♠-(P)-2♣-(5♣) and you may never get to bid your heart suit with just shy of a 3♥ bid (or you'll bid it and find you have a choice of 5/6-1 spade fit or 5/6-0 heart fit at the 5 level).

[pescetom]

Wow so (1♣)-1♠-(P)-2♣-(5♣) and you may never get to bid your heart suit with just shy of a 3♥ bid (or you'll bid it and find you have a choice of 5/6-1 spade fit or 5/6-0 heart fit at the 5 level).

 

It doesn't look like it will necessarily be a tragedy, in any case it's easy to construct a non-ideal auction for any agreement.

This agreement I think is pretty standard, I was taught it as part of basic 2/1 and I see that Bridge World Standard 2017 says much the same too:

 

C. After Our Suit Overcall of a One-Bid

After our simple overcall of a one-bid:

(a) A new-suit bid by an unpassed advancer is natural and nonforcing, constructive if an advance of a two-level overcall. (Then: a cue-bid by intervenor is artificial and neither shows nor denies a primary fit for advancer's suit.) A new-suit jump is invitational.

(b) A cue-bid may be either a strong raise or a prelude to a forcing bid in a new suit (but a passed-hand cue-bid guarantees a fit for intervenor's suit). A jump cue-bid is a mixed (i.e., semipreemptive) raise that shows at least one defensive trick.

[Tramticket]

Really ? I'm not sure I know anybody who would play (1♣)-1♠-2♥ as NF

 

Transfers work well here:

1♣-1♠-2♣ = diamonds

1♣-1♠-2♦ = hearts

1♣-1♠-2♥ = invitational spade raise (UCB type)

1♣-1♠-2♠ = Competing

[miamijd]

Really ? I'm not sure I know anybody who would play (1♣)-1♠-2♥ as NF

 

You misunderstood me. I don't mean NF by responder. I mean NF by advancer.

 

1C (1S) 2H

 

Of course this is forcing.

 

(1C) 1S pass 2H

 

The modern trend in the USA is to play this non-forcing. The same goes for

 

(1C) 1H pass 1S

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Cyberyeti]

You misunderstood me. I don't mean NF by responder. I mean NF by advancer.

 

1C (1S) 2H

 

Of course this is forcing.

 

(1C) 1S pass 2H

 

The modern trend in the USA is to play this non-forcing. The same goes for

 

(1C) 1H pass 1S

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

No I didn't misunderstand you, only the 1♣ is in brackets in my post, I also meant 1♣-1♠-P-2♥, you make constructive bidding almost impossible if opener barrages if you can't start with 2♥ forcing. I can see why you might want the 1 level auction to be NF, but a 2/1 is going to promise good values, so unless you overcall on absolute manure playing it forcing seems better.

[miamijd]

No I didn't misunderstand you, only the 1♣ is in brackets in my post, I also meant 1♣-1♠-P-2♥, you make constructive bidding almost impossible if opener barrages if you can't start with 2♥ forcing. I can see why you might want the 1 level auction to be NF, but a 2/1 is going to promise good values, so unless you overcall on absolute manure playing it forcing seems better.

 

The modern trend is decidedly non-forcing. There are some top-level players that still play one level responses to overcalls as forcing (although the majority play those non-forcing, too), but very few play 2-level responses to overcalls as forcing. If a 2-level response is forcing, then what do you do here:

 

(1C) 1S p ??

 

x xxx AKxxxx xxx

 

Don't you want to be able to bid 2D and have partner pass? Sure you do. If partner has to bid on with even a halfway decent overcall like:

 

AKxxx Qxx x QTxx

 

you are going to be in deep doo-doo pretty quickly.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Cyberyeti]

The modern trend is decidedly non-forcing. There are some top-level players that still play one level responses to overcalls as forcing (although the majority play those non-forcing, too), but very few play 2-level responses to overcalls as forcing. If a 2-level response is forcing, then what do you do here:

 

(1C) 1S p ??

 

x xxx AKxxxx xxx

 

Don't you want to be able to bid 2D and have partner pass? Sure you do. If partner has to bid on with even a halfway decent overcall like:

 

AKxxx Qxx x QTxx

 

you are going to be in deep doo-doo pretty quickly.

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

I bid 1N, he bids 2♣ (particularly if the club is potentially short) and I bid 2♦ end of auction no issues. If the club is not potentially short we might play a filthy 1N but you're probably not making 2♦ either.

[fromageGB]

As tramticket said, forget forcing/non-forcing 2♥ : have both.

 

The way I play transfer advances is probably the same as anyone else, ie :

1) Bids between overcaller's suit and opener's (at the next higher level of course) are forcing.

2) Bids of opener's suit up to the one beneath overcaller's suit are transfers.

3) Raise of overcaller's suit is weak.

4) Higher bids are what you wish, and for me they are fit jumps - designed to aid competitive bidding, they are raises to the level of next higher opener's suit (not stronger) and show length in the suit bid.

4b) A fit jump can be at any higher level, where you wish to compete to that level.

 

A big and very important benefit is that bidding 2M of partner's suit is a weak raise, while transferring to that suit is a stronger raise. For me, I assume 12hcp for a 1♠ open, and have an unopposed reply of 2♠ = 7-10hcp when 3 cards. My assumption is that an overcall can be typically 2 hcp lighter than an open, so 10 hcp, so my "full strength" 2♥ transfer to 2♠ is correspondingly stronger, at 9-12 hcp. Therefore a direct raise here to 2♠ is up to 8 hcp only.

 

Indeed the transfer raise can be any strength stronger than the nominal 9-12 because it is forcing, and I can rebid should partner just bid 2♠. All 3 card raises can therefore start this way. (4 card raises 9+ start with a jump cue bid of opener's suit).

 

Partner is not obliged to complete the transfer to a new suit, but would if he has a hand that would pass a "weak 2" type advancer. The benefit here is that the stronger overcaller is playing the suit in the concealed hand.

 

Applying this to the discussed sequence of (1♣) 1♠ (pass) ?? having hearts, 2♦ is a transfer to a 5+ card heart suit, and if partner completes as he usually would, you can pass 2♥ when weak, and bid on if invitational or better - perhaps showing partial spade support. So both forcing and non-forcing hands are catered for - have your cake and eat it.

 

Applying this to the OP hand, (1♣) 1 ♥ (pass) 1♠ is forcing, so 2♠ is a fit jump as Cyberyeti discussed in post #10.

 

A thoroughly recommended method, and easy for anyone to adopt.