ATB?

[gwnn]

Hey, I've recently started playing live again (first time in almost 4 years) so I might be around from time to time, trying to re-adjust my brain to non-GIBs.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=skqjt984hdaqcaq92&n=s6h87654d6432ck64&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1hd1np2h2s3hpp3sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

We missed an awesome game here (IMPs). ATB?

[etha]

south has to make bids that are forcing till game is reached. If they have a shadow of doubt that 3♠ can be passed or 2♠ for that matter they are the wrong bid.

[shyams]

South.

 

North could be as weak as ♠- ♥87654 ♦65432 ♣J104 and you're still a favourite for 10 tricks.

[johnu]

100% South. South has to bid 4♠ at some time before the end of the auction.

 

South does not need any spade support, a void is good enough to play the suit for 1 loser. You have a decent play for 4♠ with almost anything from North:

 

[hv=pc=n&n=s2h5432d5432ct432]133|100[/hv]

 

which is never going to voluntarily raise to 4♠.

[FelicityR]

At this vulnerability I'll be bidding 4♠ after their 2♥ call. You only need partner to turn up with the ♣J for the contract to be reasonable

[Cyberyeti]

You have to bid more than 2♠, I don't know what your threshold for X and bid rather than overcall looks like, but requiring potentially only one card for game must be way over it, so rebid 3 or 4 spades rather than 2, do you think partner is bidding if they don't raise hearts over 2♠ ?

[mikeh]

If this post was by anyone other than North, the blame is 100% on South. If North posted this, then the blame is on him.

 

 

Yes, North can realize, by the 3H call, that partner is void in hearts and that the club King is useful, but so what? 2S was a gross underbid, and North should view the 2S bid as limited. AKJ9xx void KQx Axxx is a very solid double then 2S, and 4S is not exactly the contract of one's dreams. Yes, the 3S bid gives another chance, but all it does is move the hand to the max for 2S: it doesn't announce that 2S was an error. So now maybe AKxxxxx void KQx Axx: still a bad game.

 

Sure, a jump to 4S could get doubled or could turn a small plus into a small minus, but so what?

[Cyberyeti]

If this post was by anyone other than North, the blame is 100% on South. If North posted this, then the blame is on him.

 

 

Yes, North can realize, by the 3H call, that partner is void in hearts and that the club King is useful, but so what? 2S was a gross underbid, and North should view the 2S bid as limited. AKJ9xx void KQx Axxx is a very solid double then 2S, and 4S is not exactly the contract of one's dreams. Yes, the 3S bid gives another chance, but all it does is move the hand to the max for 2S: it doesn't announce that 2S was an error. So now maybe AKxxxxx void KQx Axx: still a bad game.

 

Sure, a jump to 4S could get doubled or could turn a small plus into a small minus, but so what?

 

Mike, what do you think X then a jump to 3♠ is ? 9 tricks ? 8.5 ?

[pescetom]

Double and then 3♠ with a trusted partner, a direct 4♠ with anyone else.

100% South, as said.

[mikeh]

Mike, what do you think X then a jump to 3♠ is ? 9 tricks ? 8.5 ?

I'd be torn between bidding 4S myself and simply bidding 3S, both after starting with a double. If red, I think one has to simply bid game. When partner cannot possibly tell when his meagre assets are all you need, stopping on a dime in 3S is imo losing bridge, especially since we have such good trump texture and both minor aces that the opps cannot realistically double.

 

void xxxxx xxxxx J10x is a great game, while of course void xxxxx J10xxx xxx is pretty hopeless.

 

non-vul, the odds are different and now missing a close game is not at all bad, although if you watch high-level bridge it seems that the winning teams are usually in all these games. Edit: I think one reason for this is that the toughest part of the game, even or perhaps especially at the high-level in long matches, is defence and one can get worn out if the opps continually bid close games, where you 'should' beat it but a moment's loss of focus or simply a mis-read of the hand leads to a make. Even when one defends perfectly, the level of effort required can have a cumulative effect. Don't ever kid yourself that fatigue is not an issue at the highest levels. Having to cope with 1H (4S) P P ? is far more taxing than any of the auctions suggested on this thread, starting with double. End edit and segue into the next part of the post, written before the edit)

 

Actually, when I first saw the problem, my reaction was that I would have bid 4S over 1H, and then would have doubled had they pulled to the 5-level, to show that I was bidding to make, with cards on the side. I went along with the double then bid, in order to address the ATB, since while I tend to prefer 4S, one can hardly argue that double was an error.

 

I do think that 4S has a far better upside than anything else. Slam is remote after RHO opened, and I am doubtful that we could bid it anyway. Give partner xxx xxxx xxx KJx and slam is good, since the diamond K rates to be onside, yet are we ever bidding it?

 

Meanwhile, the slow route allows the opps to limit their hands, and thus we won't be doubled in a making game nor will we collect a number (possibly when our game was failing). Bid 4S and it goes P P to opener.....he may well have a hand on which he will feel he has to reopen, usually via double, and now we may have a fielder's choice.

 

The expert game these days is as much about inducing error on the part of the opponents as it is about bidding one's hands perfectly. 4S has a lot going for it, and very little against it, unless one was thinking of allowing partner to bail out on us at the 3-level.

[HardVector]

Mike, what do you think X then a jump to 3♠ is ? 9 tricks ? 8.5 ?

I would play a X, cuebid, then 3s is 9 tricks. X, 3s is less, so 8 or 8.5 tricks.

[mikeh]

I would play a X, cuebid, then 3s is 9 tricks. X, 3s is less, so 8 or 8.5 tricks.

Unfortunately for you, it is extremely unlikely that you would be permitted to cuebid 3H (over their 2H) and then be allowed to bid 3S. You'd need LHO to double 3H for you!

 

Now, a classic error by non-expert players is the fatuous double of a cuebid, so it is possible, but I would not count on it when deciding how best to show my hand over 2H B-)

 

In any event, to me a double then cue is gf. I would need a stronger hand that the one I hold in order to double then cue.

 

AKQJxxx void AQx AQx is a double then cue then bid. Can't happen?

 

In a recent KO match my LHO held AQ9x KJ9 AK AKQx, red v white, and I opened 1S in front of him (as did my counterpart at the other table, both holding KJ10xx xxx xxx xx)

 

That was a double then cue hand :rolleyes:

[rmnka447]

The blame is 100% 0n South, only bidding 2 ♠ is an unconscionable underbid.

 

I'm also torn between simply bidding 4 ♠ after 2 ♥ or bidding 3 ♠ and hoping partner can bid 4 ♠.

 

The 2 ♠ free bid should show the 16-18 strong overcall and South's is a much stronger player than that. It is a 2 loser hand if you use basic LTC. If East had passed, I'd have no problem opening a strong 2 ♣ bid on the hand.

 

To me, a 3 ♠ jump rebid after 2 ♥ says "Partner if you have any card at all that may be useful, don't hesitate to bid game." North with ♣ Kxx and a ♠ should bid game in a flash.

 

OTOH, the South hand is such a big player that even giving partner a chance to pass below game may be a mistake.

 

At MPs, the decision might be a harder one. At IMPs I think I'm probably more apt to make a 4 ♠ game try -- bid game and try to make it.

 

If the bidding were lower on the second round where South could cue 2 ♥ to show a strong 2 ♣ type hand, I'd make that bid. But I think that cueing 3 ♥ over East's 2 ♥ bid isn't right as it takes up too much room and might get us too high before we settle in ♠.

[gwnn]

OK mikeh I was N, why is it my fault then? It's not like my partner is a forum poster and I want to rub it in. I just wanted to make sure I didn't misassess. I was especially interested in raising 3 to 4, but at the table I passed quite quickly.

[kuhchung]

Better to post N hand only to delay the vitriol, maybe :)

 

Hi gwnn!!!

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=skqjt984hdaqcaq92&n=s6h87654d6432ck64&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1hd1np2h2s3hpp3sppp]266|200|

gwnn writes 'Hey, I've recently started playing live again (first time in almost 4 years) so I might be around from time to time, trying to re-adjust my brain to non-GIBs

We missed an awesome game here (IMPs). ATB?'

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Welcome back, Gwnn! If North holds ...

-- ♠ - ♥ x x x x ♦ x x x x x ♣ x x x x then 4♠ is reasonable

-- ♠ - ♥ x x x ♦ x x x x ♣ x x x x x x then 6♣ by South is reasonable

[/hv]

[TylerE]

What are you entries to dunny exactly, nige? I think your "reasonable", at least in the case of 6♣, is a gross overbid.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=skqjt984hdaqcaq92&n=s6h87654d6432ck64&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1hd1np2h2s3hpp3sppp]266|200|

gwnn writes 'Hey, I've recently started playing live again (first time in almost 4 years) so I might be around from time to time, trying to re-adjust my brain to non-GIBs

We missed an awesome game here (IMPs). ATB?'

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Welcome back, Gwnn! If North holds ...

-- ♠ - ♥ x x x x ♦ x x x x x ♣ x x x x then 4♠ is reasonable

-- ♠ - ♥ x x x ♦ x x x x ♣ x x x x x x then 6♣ by South is reasonable

[/hv]

What are you entries to dummy exactly, nige? I think your "reasonable", at least in the case of 6♣, is a gross overbid.

TylerE has a point but, IMO, In practical IMPs play, both contracts are reasonable. e,g. Defenders might lead a minor.

• In 4♠, ♣K might be doubleton or the 3rd ♣ might endplay LHO. Otherwise, if ♣s are 3-2, declarer might enter dummy with the 4th round of ♣s to finesse ♦Q.
• In 6♣, ♠A or ♣K might be favorably placed. After ruffing the opening ♥ lead, declarer can lead .♠K and ruff it to take the ♣ finesse

.

[dsLawsd]

Welcome back. I agree with Cyberyeti but in a non long term partnership I think I would double then bid 4♠. Any time dummy holds just the JT of clubs I have close to a make in my hands- go go.

 

Too much rubber bridge in my background to bid less as with a nice hand (never happens) partner can look for more.

[maartenxq]

At some point of the bidding you say 4 ♠. That is easy, but what to do if opponents find the 5th ♥? 5 even 6 ♠has chances and you cannot be sure you beat 5 ♥. I guess I would double with many misgivings.

 

Maarten Baltussen

[Tramticket]

At some point of the bidding you say 4 ♠. That is easy, but what to do if opponents find the 5th ♥?

 

Well, they are not playing in 5♥ undoubled, so either your side needs to double or bid on.

 

I would tend to double (showing values) and then bid 4♠. I would then allow partner to judge whether to double or bid on. Since a direct 4♠ bid over 1♥ might (will usually?) be pre-emptive, you cannot expect partner to double if you pass their 5♥.

 

... but then I read MikeH's post. If you jump to 4♠ immediately and then double the 5♥ competition this must indicate that you have real value and must logically suggest that you had bid 4♠ expecting to make. Partner can either pass the double of 5♥ or remove the double to 5♠ based on their holding. This is neat - I like it. The only thing that it gives up is the chance to investigate a slam (which must be low odds given that opponents have opened the bidding.

[msjennifer]

Sirs,when I had a look at the hand and the bidding I felt that a double and then a very pessimistic 2S bid is unrealistic.After RHO had shown an opening hand it is very difficult to visualise a little slam unless one has an array of some artificial bids.It is easy to visualise that if one doubles and then finds stuck over 4H,one is going to bid 4S. If playing a TOD over 2H with LEBENSOHL would not help either ,One just needs the CJ10x to score 4S.Hence ,in my personal logic,one simply bids 4S and not a TOD over 1H.(Again if LHO ,just imagine, trap- passes the TOD and partner bids a forced 2D one is back to square one.).

[mikeh]

OK mikeh I was N, why is it my fault then? It's not like my partner is a forum poster and I want to rub it in. I just wanted to make sure I didn't misassess. I was especially interested in raising 3 to 4, but at the table I passed quite quickly.

I was borrowing from Michael rosenberg’s approach at bridgewinners. Some atb problems are not problems: one partner clearly did nothing wrong while the other clearly screwed up at least once, so any rational analysis would lead 100% of posters to blame one player. While one can never know the motive of the OP, one has to wonder why, given how obvious the answer was, the post was made. His notion is then when it appears that the post was made by the clearly innocent player, the inference would be that the post was made to settle an argument when there should be no argument. I see that this was not your intention and I apologize for using this approach.

[gwnn]

Fair enough. No apologies needed, his point makes sense too. I honestly was wondering if raising 3 to 4 made sense. I obviously realized that double then 2 was an underbid, but I am still a bit rusty/insecure and also I was open to feedback along the lines of "N 50%, S 120%, both players are terrible LOL".

[miamijd]

On hands like these at IMPs, you have to bid game. Maybe you go set a trick if partner is totally blank, but you can't miss games on these sorts of hands, and there is very little way for partner to know how useful his hand is going to be.

 

I think you have two alternatives:

 

1. Double then bid 4S.

2. Bid 4S directly over 1H.

 

I prefer X then 4S, because all partner really needs for slam is the A of spades and the K or JT of clubs. You probably won't get there if that's all he has, but at least it keeps slam alive if partner has a slightly better hand.

 

But a direct 4S call (followed by a X of 5H if the opponents bid that) has a lot going for it, too.

 

Cheers,

Mike