Best Bid at Rubber, MPs or IMPs

[FelicityR]

Rubber bridge. Game +40 to North/South.

 

This distributional hand was dealt to my partner (East). South opened 2C - he is known to be an overbidder by nature - and North bid 2D (waiting). What do you feel is the right bid on this hand. (And how would you bid it playing IMPs or MPs?) And as always, thank you for your replies.

 

[hv=pc=n&e=sh8dkjt64ckqt9642&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=2c(Strong%20GF)p2d(Waiting)]133|200[/hv]

[hrothgar]

Rubber bridge. Game +40 to North/South.

 

This distributional hand was dealt to my partner (East). South opened 2C - he is known to be an overbidder by nature - and North bid 2D (waiting). What do you feel is the right bid on this hand. (And how would you bid it playing IMPs or MPs?) And as always, thank you for your replies.

 

[hv=pc=n&e=sh8dkjt64ckqt9642&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=2c(Strong%20GF)p2d(Waiting)]133|200[/hv]

 

I'd bid an immediate 4NT

[Stephen Tu]

5♣ given the suit length disparity.

[Tramticket]

What is our objective? It seems to me that opponents have the values for game and likely for a slam. So I would consider it a probable win if we can persuade them to play in game only. I am only bidding once - bidding twice might give more info to opps. It is difficult to guess the best tactics and it might depend on personal taste. It might be that 4C would be enough to interfere, without showing really extreme distribution (which would help opps).

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&e=sh8dkjt64ckqt9642&d=e&v=n&b=15&a=p2c(Strong%20GF)p2d?(Waiting)]133|200| FelictyR writes 'Rubber bridge. Game +40 to North/South. This distributional hand was dealt to my partner (East). South opened 2C - he is known to be an overbidder by nature - and North bid 2D (waiting). What do you feel is the right bid on this hand. (And how would you bid it playing IMPs or MPs?) And as always, thank you for your replies.'

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Felicity's diagram fixed to make East the dealer although it's hand to understand the initial pass.

Now, at Rubber, MPs, or IMPS,

-- Stephen Tu's 5♣ seems reasonable, .

-- An alternative might be 4♣, intending to bid 4N over opponent's 4M.

-- Or 3N, intending to bid 5♣ over opponent's 4M.[/hv]

[HardVector]

At rubber, game is 2h, 2s, or 2n. I'd push it to the 5 level to make them guess on whether to go for the slam bonus. The principal is applicable to the other forms of scoring as well. I'm kind of torn between 4n and 5c, though. The club suit is 2 cards better than diamonds, but I've played in a 7-0 before when a 5-4 fit existed.

[mikeh]

It's been decades since I last played rubber bridge, and what I remember most is that the level of expertise was wildly variable, and that playing one's opps (and partner, since one rarely plays set partnerships) was a big part of the game. Be that as it may, freaks are freaks, and there are few reliable 'rules'.

 

One other thing I remember is that sometimes it is best to let them get a rubber rather than go for any kind of number and still have them poised to win the rubber anyway. Here, they are, if I read the post correctly, with a 40 leg and they have already scored a game and we have not. (Sounds like classic rubber: when I last played Chicago was the prevailing style, where the vulnerability went with the 'board' designation: none, then N-S, then E-W and finally both, in 4 board sets.

 

Still a freak is a freak and indeed this freak could end up being a plus for us, so I will be competing, a lot.

 

My plan would be the same at all forms of scoring.

 

I bid 3C now, and then bid the necessary minimum level of notrump on my next call, unless raised by partner. If he doubles LHO (say I bid 3C and LHO bids 3M and partner doubles) I'd need to know if I trust partner. If I do, I pass. If I don't, I rebid clubs (not notrump, which he'll take as natural too often...I said I bid if I didn't trust him). Fortunately, at imps or mps, I don't play these days with people I don't trust :rolleyes:

 

Unless the auction tells me otherwise, I don't intend to let them play below the 7-level....and I hope that any grand by them will be lost on the rocks of the extreme shape.

 

I don't bid 5C immediately, and I don't suggest equivalent minors. Clubs then notrump is the conventional (as in: usual) way of showing a 2-card length discrepancy. This 'could' be an exception due to our club texture, but why can't partner hold xxxx Axxx Qxxx x or the like. I mean, in my fantasy world he has xxxx xxxx Axxxx void and they lead a black suit :rolleyes:

[gszes]

5c. My intent is to make slam exploration as difficult as possible for the opps at all forms of scoring. I have no intention of backing in later since I will have just as little clue as I do now how high they belong. I can sympathize with the idea of not going for a number when the rubber seems doomed anyway but I feel the odds of the opps having a slam are so high that making it tough for them to bid slam properly looks well worth any penalty we suffer in 5c. The 57 distribution keeps me from having p consider 5d as a final contract for our side because it is probably just too darn difficult for p to choose the right minor.

[neilkaz]

I don't think I can fully remember how to score rubber as I only play duplicate. But at duplicate I'll put the 5♣ card on the table here.

[msjennifer]

Sirs/miss/madam,To admit frankly I have only heard of Rubber Bridge leave alone play it.As per my knowledge the NS require to make only a part score to make game and win the Rubber(WIDOW rubber?).I shall tell you our strategies for this vulnerability and with the given bidding .We bid 4 Heart.and then if doubled bid 4NT to show a minor suited hand with longer clubs.Reverse the minor suits and we bid 4 Spade and as before 4NT to show minor suited hand with longer diamonds.These bids may sound ridiculous and I certainly do not advise others to use these .With majors we bid 3NT (transfer to 4C) and then 4D to show longer spades and 4H to show longer Hearts.This scheme allows us to use 3C/D/H/S bids as natural overcalls.

 

 

 

 

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[maartenxq]

If south overbid his hand he has no doubt some major one or two suiter. His side needs also only 60 for game and rubber.

If south has a long suit I would like to compete up to 5 ♣. I can achieve that by bidding 2 NT now and some number of ♣ later.

If south is 2 suited p may have some unpleasant surprises for him. I will therefore respect my partners dbl on 4 level and should maybe pass something like

2 ♣ 2 ♦ 2 nt

3♠Already enough for game) 4 ♣

4♥

 

but that is difficult.

 

In mps and imps I would bid on the same lines. I will not bid an immediate 4 NT because this may be totally wrong and more important I want to emphasize that my ♣ are way better than my !d.

 

Maarten Baltussen

[ray_p]

The time to bid was that first round pass by E, which should have been a 3C pre-empt, rather than waiting for chance to bid unusual NT - especially at -40 below the line and favourable vulnerability.

 

Anything looks a bit late now opponents have been unleashed.

 

Consider 2 possibilities: (a) that the 2C bid was only to force partner into bid upto the 2M/3m level for game or

(b) It is a truly strong hand, but probably not slam going unless they find their good fit.

 

You have 0-1 defensive tricks, but partner may have 0-11 points (a) or 0-8 points (b), which have no offensive value for you, but with some defensive value against their game.

 

Make opponents earn their game, in full. Don't just rollover and give in. Compete to take out bidding space and a belated 4C is probably better than pass as it is makes them play in 4. Although 5C is too risky - your potentially 5-loser hand might get held to just 5 tricks.

[mikeh]

If south overbid his hand he has no doubt some major one or two suiter. His side needs also only 60 for game and rubber.

If south has a long suit I would like to compete up to 5 ♣. I can achieve that by bidding 2 NT now and some number of ♣ later.

If south is 2 suited p may have some unpleasant surprises for him. I will therefore respect my partners dbl on 4 level and should maybe pass something like

2 ♣ 2 ♦ 2 nt

3♠Already enough for game) 4 ♣

4♥

 

but that is difficult.

 

In mps and imps I would bid on the same lines. I will not bid an immediate 4 NT because this may be totally wrong and more important I want to emphasize that my ♣ are way better than my !d.

 

Maarten Baltussen

The way to emphasize clubs, while still showing diamonds, is to bid clubs then notrump. Doing it backwards may get you into diamonds when you belong in clubs, and offers no discernible offsetting advantage

[miamijd]

These freak hands are hard to bid. No one really knows what is right. I'll forget rubber bridge (I haven't played that in 30 years) and concentrate on MP or IMP scoring.

 

I think 5C is very reasonable. That would probably be my call. The opponents likely have a game in 4M (although South is getting some awful suit splits, so if he is an overbidder ...), and you want to bid 5m over that. So let's do so now, before the opponents can exchange information.

The clubs are sufficiently better than the diamonds that 5C seems preferable to 4NT.

 

The other approach would be to bid 4C now and then 4NT if (probably more like when) the opponents settle in 4M. This approach shows your hand far better. It suggests lots of clubs, some (though fewer) diamonds, and a hand that can bid on its own to the 5-level. That's exactly what you have. The trouble is that this strategy gives the opponents a lot more room to operate. The 2C bidder can get his suit in at the 4-level instead of at the five-level. If his partner passes 4M, then and over 4NT, the opener can pass, X, or cue-bid a minor. Much easier to find a slam.

 

To me, the advantage of 5C (it makes things much harder for the opponents) outweighs the disadvantage (you might belong in diamonds and be able to make 5D).

 

Cheers,

Mike

[nekthen]

At rubber bridge I would pass. They have the rubber in the bag. Let it go and hope to get your money back on the next rubber. At pairs or imps you go with the field and bid 4N or 5c although I have a sneaking admiration for the passers

[miamijd]

At rubber bridge I would pass. They have the rubber in the bag. Let it go and hope to get your money back on the next rubber. At pairs or imps you go with the field and bid 4N or 5c although I have a sneaking admiration for the passers

 

You don't win at bridge by being pusillanimous. If you let the opponents bid these sorts of hands without interference, you will lose big in the long run at any form of scoring. How many tricks do you expect to be set in 5c,a anyway? Hey, on a good day, you might make it.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Caitlynne]

I am definitely bidding and I want to preempt. However, I don't like 5C for two reasons:

1. I have only seven clubs; 5C strongly suggests at least 8 clubs and no other good suit in which to play, so 5C is too much of an all or nothing (mastermind) bid.

2. I have a very fine FIVE card diamond suit. The likelihood of diamonds being a good place to play - e.g., should partner have 4 of them - is not particularly small.

 

So my plan is to hedge my bets:

1. Start with 4C. This suggests a 7 or 8 card suit and I have that.

2. If LHO bids 4M, and this gets passed to me, I will try 4N - unusual, and strongly suggesting 5 diamonds and 7 clubs.

[nekthen]

You don't win at bridge by being pusillanimous. If you let the opponents bid these sorts of hands without interference, you will lose big in the long run at any form of scoring. How many tricks do you expect to be set in 5c,a anyway? Hey, on a good day, you might make it.

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

imho I do not think you understand rubber bridge. Assume you go down in 5c, even undoubled. thats another 100 invested in this rubber. Opps are still game and 40 and massive favourites to win a 2 game rubber. (I am assuming this is old school rubber not chicago)

Rubber bridge is not about doing the best you can on one hand. It is about the series of hands that make up the rubber.

 

The other problem with bidding on this hand, at any form of scoring, is that you are very unlikely to win the auction, in which case you may well be pointing declarer towards the right path to make his contract

 

Last night I played in 3N and had to bring in AQT932 opposite K5 to make the contract. I played the K and finessed for the J. RHO had bid 2N for the minors. Without that bid I would have played for the drop and gone down

[msjennifer]

The time to bid was that first round pass by E, which should have been a 3C pre-empt, rather than waiting for chance to bid unusual NT - especially at -40 below the line and favourable vulnerability.

 

Anything looks a bit late now opponents have been unleashed.

 

Consider 2 possibilities: (a) that the 2C bid was only to force partner into bid upto the 2M/3m level for game or

(b) It is a truly strong hand, but probably not slam going unless they find their good fit.

 

You have no defensive tricks, but partner may have 0-11 points (a) or 0-8 points (b), probably with no offensive value for you, but with some defensive value against game.

Make opponents earn their game, in full. Don't just rollover with a useful hand, compete to take out bidding space.

Sir. as a number of this or that have been suggested , I would like to ask WHAT does one bid IF IT WAS SOUTH WHO DEALT AND OPENED 2C. In fact perhaps the OP would also like to know what is the bid now.To imagine that South would have this or that or he is trying to fool is not the question here,The problem posed here is entirely different.THE OP is ,I feel, interested in knowing the options available, because it is also asked what will be the strategy at MP or IMP .Rather than giving a straight forward answer it has been dragged into hypothetic argument.Certainlty S FACING A NON PASSED PARTNER WITH ADVERSE VULNERABILITY shall NEVER open a false 2C strong GF and finally get penalised severely perhaps -800 or more.And just a polite reminder the EAST hand is NOT A PASSED HAND so there is no question of one doing anything on the so imagined FIRST ROUND.

[msjennifer]

Sir. as a number of this or that have been suggested , I would like to ask WHAT does one bid IF IT WAS SOUTH WHO DEALT AND OPENED 2C. In fact perhaps the OP would also like to know what is the bid now.To imagine that South would have this or that or he is trying to fool is not the question here,The problem posed here is entirely different.THE OP is ,I feel, interested in knowing the options available, because it is also asked what will be the strategy at MP or IMP .Rather than giving a straight forward answer it has been dragged into hypothetic argument.Certainlty S FACING A NON PASSED PARTNER WITH ADVERSE VULNERABILITY shall NEVER open a false 2C strong GF and finally get penalised severely perhaps -800 or more.And just a polite reminder the EAST hand is NOT A PASSED HAND so there is no question of one doing anything on the so imagined FIRST ROUND.

A 3C bid suggested by " ray p" would have been A BID OUT OF TURN and subject to penalties.

[Tramticket]

At rubber bridge I would pass. They have the rubber in the bag. Let it go and hope to get your money back on the next rubber.

 

I understand the point that you are making and if the opponents would stop quietly in 4M, I would tend to agree.

 

But, last time I looked, vulnerable slams and even grand slams can add up to a large financial cost at rubber bridge. We don't seem to have much in the way of defensive strength - although there is some possibility that bad breaks might come as an unpleasant surprise to the opponents. I would expect that, given an uncontested auction, the opponents will judge well whether to play in four, six or seven. If we rob them of space, they will find it less easy to judge whether to push for a slam.

 

But if I choose to compete with 4♣ and the opponents bid their major-suit game I will not push further at this form of scoring.

[ray_p]

Grow up MsJennifer! As you mention, you're not aware how rubber bridge changes things.

 

With 40 below, a GF is only forcing to 2H, not 3NT. (so could be light in the way a 4th seat bid is light - for example a south with 19 distributional points would not want partner to pass a 1M bid with 5 points, so could choose 2C to investigate partners hand with the intention to pass when a satisfactory contract is reached)

 

Here I would read 2C it as promising at least 7 1/2 tricks, not necessarily more. You're right in that it creates ambiguity, but partner should be smart enough to take this into account

[kenberg]

The OP says "This distributional hand was dealt to my partner". It doesn't say "dealt by my partner" and the diagram shows S as starting the auction. So I assume S dealt the shown hand to E.

 

This was rubber bridge and NS have a 40 partscore.

 

It would be good to know how this might alter the NS bidding. For example, is 2C - 2D - 2S - Pass a possible auction for them? 2S is a game contract.

 

I think I might well just bid 3C. Sure they are going to make game in some major, or at least I assume so. But they not be clear themselves on exactly how much strength is needed for a 2C opener with 40 on. And it's said that the 2C opener is known to open light. So I think I bid 3C and let them try to sort out who has how much strength.

 

At matchpoints, and maybe at imps, I would just bid 5C over 2D.

[miamijd]

imho I do not think you understand rubber bridge. Assume you go down in 5c, even undoubled. thats another 100 invested in this rubber. Opps are still game and 40 and massive favourites to win a 2 game rubber. (I am assuming this is old school rubber not chicago)

Rubber bridge is not about doing the best you can on one hand. It is about the series of hands that make up the rubber.

 

The other problem with bidding on this hand, at any form of scoring, is that you are very unlikely to win the auction, in which case you may well be pointing declarer towards the right path to make his contract

 

Last night I played in 3N and had to bring in AQT932 opposite K5 to make the contract. I played the K and finessed for the J. RHO had bid 2N for the minors. Without that bid I would have played for the drop and gone down

 

I understand it fine. Just haven't played it in 30 years b/c I find it boring.

 

You can't simply consider what you think might be the most likely result and then ask whether that is worth it. There are a ton of possibilities, and you come out way ahead on most of them.

 

Going -100 for down one doubled on this hand would be stupendous in rubber bridge. The alternative is -820 for letting the opponents make game in a major.

 

Why do you think this is the opponents' hand? With 40 on and South an overbidder, God knows what he has for 2C. Maybe just a pile of H or S. Perhaps you can actually make 5C (not out of the question at all).

 

Why do you think the opponents are going to win the rubber the next hand? Perhaps you will score game on the next hand.

 

Perhaps you'll be able to defeat 5M (declarer is getting very bad breaks).

 

Perhaps you'll prevent losing a 1000 or 1500 slam bonus.

 

Perhaps a lot of things, most of which are very good for you.

 

Cheers,

mike

[msjennifer]

Grow up MsJennifer! As you mention, you're not aware how rubber bridge changes things.

 

With 40 below, a GF is only forcing to 2H, not 3NT. (so could be light in the way a 4th seat bid is light - for example a south with 19 distributional points would not want partner to pass a 1M bid with 5 points, so could choose 2C to investigate partners hand with the intention to pass when a satisfactory contract is reached)

 

Here I would read 2C it as promising at least 7 1/2 tricks, not necessarily more. You're right in that it creates ambiguity, but partner should be smart enough to take this into account

Sir thanks for your gracious and kind order ASKING me to grow up.I congratulate and wish you all the best in your ELASTIC and most highly advanced strategic enlightening bids in good old rubber bridge.And just by the way the OP clearly shows that the 2C bid was made in the FIRST SEAT.