How_bid_game_on_this_board

[pes_6]

Hi.

 

System is Acol. Most player bid and made 4♠, some bid and made 5♣ or 3nt but we wasn't. Does it exist any propery way to bid game?

 

board

[Vampyr]

LOL I see that you are opener and none of your options place the blame where it belongs.

[pes_6]

I really can't bid game (3nt) without any heart from my side after double. Isn't my mistake, it's hard shape.

[DozyDom]

Responder's double is absolutely bizarre; bears no relation to the hand at all except in high card strength, unless you play that as penalty (and if 3H is a stopper ask for you there, it clearly isn't a penalty double).

 

Opener's response is shamefully low; it undervalues the hand by about an Ace or so. Your hand should be forcing to game in as unambiguous way as possible. 4H seems right, to be honest - you should know that you have fits in both minors, and a hand with KS and KC opposite makes slam practically laydown. As it is, your partner has a useless AH and 6C is still on a finesse.

[steve2005]

LOL I see that you are opener and none of your options place the blame where it belongs.

Double is bizarre but assuming partner actually has their bid 3♣ is just as atrocious!

Surely a minor suit game or even slam is likely. I would have bid 3♥.

[Cyberyeti]

Is X penalties ?

 

If it's t/o it's a bizarre bid but whatever it is, W has then bid his 18 count like an 11 count, can't bid 3♣, 3♥ is probably best.

[hrothgar]

The auction is nonsensical

 

Even playing Acol, I'd expect the auction to go

 

1S♠ - (2♥) - P - (P)

X - all pass

[Vampyr]

Yes of course the double is bizarre but opener doesn’t know that during the auction. So the double did not really cause the problem. It’s true that if? It somehow was takeout it precluded converting a T/O double for penalties. But the OP did ask about getting to game, and after all the double was made so the penalty ship had sailed. The 3♣ bid was the fatal error.

[nige1]

[hv=bbo=y&lin=pn|anpierre,pes_6,casey2,bialk2|st%7C%7Cmd%7C2S9TJH58D4568TC23K%2CS257QAHD7JQKC58QA%2CS348H67TJQKD2AC79%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%204%7Csv%7Cb%7Cmb%7C1S%7Cmb%7C2H%7Cmb%7Cd%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3C%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CDK%7C]400|400|

pes 6's bidding problem

++++++++++++++++++

 

IMO, East shouldn't double 2♥ but, when East does, West should push to slam (perhaps starting with 3♥). 3♣ was an underbid.

Agree with Hrothgar that a typical Acol auction would be 1♠ (2♥) P (Pass) X (All pass) +800

 

[/hv]

[pes_6]

Double from responder isn't penalty, apsolutely never penalty. My opinion is that partner need pass and I rebid double and than my partner can choose bid again or let 2♥x, I can't pass his/her double and I can't know that we've minor game, the best I can in this situation after his/her double is bid 3♥ and forcing auction to some game contract.

[msjennifer]

Sirs.your partners negative double is not warranted.I would PASS and that is why I voted so.Does he really want to push the hand to 3level if opener has a normal 12HCP hand keeping in mind that with 10/11 cards from the heart suit suit between him and his RHO the other suits may not break all that favourably.However if the bidding at all goes like1S-2H-DOUBLE-PASS- then it is the opener who will have to force game by bidding 3H or whatever as per the partnership understanding.

[msjennifer]

The auction is nonsensical

 

Even playing Acol, I'd expect the auction to go

 

1S♠ - (2♥) - P - (P)

X - all pass

Sir.Quite so and +800 would by yummy.

[FelicityR]

Your partner (bialk2) has 5000+ log-ins and considers herself an 'intermediate' but obviously has no concept of what a negative double is...

 

...and you have 5000+ logins too and consider yourself 'advanced' - the same level as me on BBO - and respond at the lowest (non-forcing) level with a very strong hand when partner has made what seems like a negative double...

 

And you wonder why you didn't reach game, or extract a nice penalty from the opponents on this hand? I think the blame lies squarely with both of you on this hand. There's many people on BBO who are decent card players and rate themselves higher than their true standard. But to be at a certain level you need to have card knowledge and and an idea of bidding for that level.

 

Just saying...

 

...and all the other commentators have said similarly.

[Tramticket]

Double from responder isn't penalty, apsolutely never penalty. My opinion is that partner need pass and I rebid double and than my partner can choose bid again or let 2♥x, I can't pass his/her double and I can't know that we've minor game, the best I can in this situation after his/her double is bid 3♥ and forcing auction to some game contract.

 

Unless you have agreed to play a system from the 1950's with penalty doubles in this situation, your partner's double is wrong, as all contributors have noted.

 

But you are not acknowledging / understanding your under-bid. A 3♣ bid looks like this:

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sa8752hd7642caq85&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1s2hdp3cppp]133|200[/hv]

 

With your three-loser hand, you are too strong for a jump to 4♣ and should cue-bid their heart suit in response to partner's double. I would expect you to reach 6♣.

[pes_6]

Really, but really I don't know where can I countinue our bidding, I know that I've to bid one more time so I've options call my lower minor or ask for stopper in ♥s or bid PASS on blind and take-out double make penalty. So, If you all wish I can admit that I did mistake and I've bid 3♥ on partner double regardless my partner made mistake before me. End of story.

[Tramticket]

Really, but really I don't know where can I countinue our bidding, I know that I've to bid one more time so I've options call my lower minor or ask for stopper in ♥s or bid PASS on blind and take-out double make penalty. So, If you all wish I can admit that I did mistake and I've bid 3♥ on partner double regardless my partner made mistake before me. End of story.

 

The problems seems to be that you believe that a 3♥ bid is asking for stoppers. It isn't, it announces that you have a strong (game forcing) hand with no clear direction. One possible response to 3♥ would be 3NT, which of course shows a stopper. But this is not the only (or even the prime) use for the 3♥ bid.

 

A reasonable alternative would be to jump to 4♥. This logically must show a shortage - likely a void.

[Vampyr]

Really, but really I don't know where can I countinue our bidding, I know that I've to bid one more time so I've options call my lower minor or ask for stopper in ♥s or bid PASS on blind and take-out double make penalty. So, If you all wish I can admit that I did mistake and I've bid 3♥ on partner double regardless my partner made mistake before me. End of story.

 

Quite. Your partner’s double was incorrect but it did not keep you out of game/slam. Your 3♣ bid did that.

[maartenxq]

The auction is nonsensical

 

Even playing Acol, I'd expect the auction to go

 

1S♠ - (2♥) - P - (P)

X - all pass

Indeed and +800.

 

 

Maarten Baltussen

[miamijd]

As others have already noted, neither you nor your partner acquitted yourself very well on this hand.

 

Since you play negative doubles like the rest of the world, X of 2H is awful beyond belief. Pass is pretty clear here; the question is what to do if partner reopens with a X. I would pass for penalties.

 

Partner's X ought to show either (A) both minors with 10+ or so or (B) a slew of diamonds with a decent hand that isn't good enough to force game (intending to correct 3C to 3D). Either way, you have an absolute moose. You have a three-loser hand with great 4-card support for both of partner's suits and a void in the opponents' suit. How can you not have a slam?

 

I would bid 4H over the X to show this hand. What else can that be but a fit in diamonds (partner could just have diamonds), a heart void (you didn't investigate NT), and slam intentions?

 

Another possibility is 5NT over the double -- pick a slam. This probably gives up on the grand, though.

 

3C over the X is insane. That shows a hand that does not want to play game opposite a minimum negative double. That isn't what you have at all.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[mikeh]

Really, but really I don't know where can I countinue our bidding, I know that I've to bid one more time so I've options call my lower minor or ask for stopper in ♥s or bid PASS on blind and take-out double make penalty. So, If you all wish I can admit that I did mistake and I've bid 3♥ on partner double regardless my partner made mistake before me. End of story.

I think we see your motivation in posting the hand: you want to show up your partner. You want us all to dump on your partner, so that you can win an argument with him, or at least win it in your own mind.

 

We see this on occasion: more often than any of us like. A poster claims to be looking for advice but is actually only looking to be told that he or she is right, and that partner was wrong. Shame on you.

 

 

Obviously your partner made a bone-headed bid of double and, yes, I agree that he 'made mistake before you'.

 

However, that doesn't clear you of responsibility, because you could and should have made a call that might have saved the day. Maybe partner would then make another mistake, but maybe not.

 

As others have said, your 3C call was abysmal. It is almost as bad as the ridiculous 'negative double' perpetrated by your partner.

 

If I were holding your hand and was allowed only one bid over the double, it would be (if playing with a good partner) 5N: pick a slam.

 

That's how good your hand is: it should offer some play for slam in a minor opposite a minimum negative double. Of course, in the real world I would not do that. I would, however, bid 4H, which (to any decent player) would be a very good description of my hand: 5=0=4=4, with significant extra values.

 

3H would be a third choice, behind the obvious 4H and the overly-aggressive (but not by much) 5N.

 

3H would say: I have game going values. However, it doesn't say 'why' I want to force to game. I might have a huge one-suiter in spades, too strong to bid 4S. I might have a big spade-minor 2-suiter, and want to establish an unambiguous force before revealing my minor. One thing that 3H is not, is a big 5=0=4=4, since one never uses two bids for the same purpose. If 4H is, and it is, 5=0=4=4, then 3H cannot also be that shape.

 

Had you bid 4H, who knows what your partner would do, given that he made a double of 2H, but at least you'd have a chance to play in a making contract: heck, even 4N makes! Tho I would take 4N by partner, over my 4H, as asking me to choose a minor, and I'd choose clubs.

 

I have been harsh on you, but I hope you take this in the spirit in which it is intended: to get you to understand that this is not a good place to post hands if your goal is to dump on partner. If you genuinely think that your action was correct, then post the problem but don't reply to criticisms of your actions by refusing to acknowledge error, when error is so clearly apparent.

 

You are never, ever, going to improve is you see discussion only as a way to beat up on partner, as opposed to a way to learn more about the game. Good luck.

[HardVector]

I really can't bid game (3nt) without any heart from my side after double. Isn't my mistake, it's hard shape.

Partner's double is a mistake, unless you are playing penalty doubles. Even then, partner doesn't have enough to double 2h opposite a normal opener. So, if partner's double was takeout, then they are promising at least a good 10 count to go to the 3 level, so you DO have enough to bid game. You don't know which game, so I'd bid 3h with your hand, not 3c.

[Vampyr]

Partner's double is a mistake, unless you are playing penalty doubles. Even then, partner doesn't have enough to double 2h opposite a normal opener. So, if partner's double was takeout, then they are promising at least a good 10 count to go to the 3 level, so you DO have enough to bid game. You don't know which game, so I'd bid 3h with your hand, not 3c.

 

I have been persuaded by mikeh’s argument above that 4♥is a better bid than 3♥, and shows the hand pretty much exactly.