Stuck for a bid?

[Walddk]

Also, I'd appreciate if you stop calling my opinions "pathetic".

Oh, you got that completely wrong (I can't say I am surprised). You'd better read the post again.

 

The explanation to partner about why we went down in 3NT is pathetic. But maybe you think it's a good excuse. If you do, then .... oh well.

 

Roland

[P_Marlowe]

No alert required. The bid shows willingness to play NT and is therefore not alertable. At least not where I play.

Well, if you alert 2H, explaining it as 4th suit,

... asking for a stopper in heart, and you bid

regular NT without a stopper, ..., which promises

a stopper, than this is a (legal) psych bid, but at least

I would appreciate an alert from your partner,

that you regular psych in this situation.

I am also pretty sure, that this is even in australia

alertable ...

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Walddk]

Re bidding 3NT:  Is it a general view that 3NT could be weaker than 2NT if the FSF bid is a GF?  Is it the opposite if FSF is forcing to 2NT?    ;)

Playing 2/1, 3NT would be 15-17. 2NT would be 12-14 or 18-19. Same applies to responder.

Don't be so sure about that. Lawrence, Hardy, Kokish and other experts don't all share the same view. As always: It's a matter of agreement.

 

Roland

[Walddk]

No alert required. The bid shows willingness to play NT and is therefore not alertable. At least not where I play.

Interesting news. 2♥ as 4th suit, a bid that is not necessarily natural, is not alertable in your world.

 

Roland

[Echognome]

Well, if you alert 2H, explaining it as 4th suit,

... asking for a stopper in heart, and you bid

regular NT without a stopper, ..., which promises

a stopper, than this is a (legal) psych bid, but at least

I would appreciate an alert from your partner,

that you regular psych in this situation.

I am also pretty sure, that this is even in australia

alertable ...

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Not sure I understand this. Who says that 4th suit is only asking for a heart stopper? I believe 4th suit is asking opener to describe his hand better. Since there is no perfect description, we have a bidding problem. Hence the poll.

 

I personally chose 2♠ as a waiting bid, but if someone chose 2NT as their non-descript bid (that is denying extra spade length, primary club support, or extra diamond length), I wouldn't then expect that they HAVE to have a heart stopper. It just depends on what the 2♥ specifically asks. If it specifically asks for a heart stopper, then yes 2NT should be alerted if it's regularly made without one. If it specifically asks for shape, then I'd say no it needn't be alerted. If it could be either, then I still don't think it should be alerted.

[Free]

Imo there are only 3 choices, depending on your agreements:

- 2♠ = the default answer, doesn't show anything else, no special agreements

- 2NT = 5422 distribution, responder can ask for a stopper again (so distribution before controls)

- 3♥ = showing half a stop

 

Personally I'm a shape-freak, so I like the 2nd agreement the most... Without agreements, 2♠ is obvious imo.

[Free]

No alert required. The bid shows willingness to play NT and is therefore not alertable. At least not where I play.

Interesting news. 2♥ as 4th suit, a bid that is not necessarily natural, is not alertable in your world.

 

Roland

Since most people play 4th suit GF, it's not alertable in my country as well. Just like Jacoby transfers, stayman, weak-2M,... That however, is another reason than Whereagles' ;)

[P_Marlowe]

Well, if you alert 2H, explaining it as 4th suit,

... asking for a stopper in heart, and you bid

regular NT without a stopper, ..., which promises

a stopper, than this is a (legal) psych bid, but at least

I would appreciate an alert from your partner,

that you regular psych in this situation.

I am also pretty sure, that this is even in australia

alertable ...

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Not sure I understand this. Who says that 4th suit is only asking for a heart stopper? I believe 4th suit is asking opener to describe his hand better. Since there is no perfect description, we have a bidding problem. Hence the poll.

 

I personally chose 2♠ as a waiting bid, but if someone chose 2NT as their non-descript bid (that is denying extra spade length, primary club support, or extra diamond length), I wouldn't then expect that they HAVE to have a heart stopper. It just depends on what the 2♥ specifically asks. If it specifically asks for a heart stopper, then yes 2NT should be alerted if it's regularly made without one. If it specifically asks for shape, then I'd say no it needn't be alerted. If it could be either, then I still don't think it should be alerted.

 

Usually 2H asks for several things a, b, c

(stopper, shape, ...) in a partnership depend

predefined order.

The answer is given with the responses,

and a NT bid normaly promises the stopper.

 

... And if the cheapes NT bid is your default

rebid, saying "No, I dont have a, b, c",

then I would still expect an alert, because

the NT bid promieses the stopper, virtual since

the time the convetion was invented, ... if I

recall corectly 1940-1950.

In other word, such a meaning cannot readily

be expected.

 

With lind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: If you sell Qxx as stopper, I would not have any

problems with that.

PSS: If you dont alert 2NT, the absolut minimum would

be, that you tell me in case I ask, "Anything unusual?"

[whereagles]

Also, I'd appreciate if you stop calling my opinions "pathetic".

Oh, you got that completely wrong (I can't say I am surprised). You'd better read the post again.

 

The explanation to partner about why we went down in 3NT is pathetic. But maybe you think it's a good excuse. If you do, then .... oh well.

 

Roland

I didn't get anything wrong. You wrote it wrong because it was prone to two interpretations (the excuse and the way I deal with bidding situation). I guess you're not in the business of making clear posts. Obviously, you prefer to keep it muddy, so that you can later pick the interpretation that is more convenient. (I can't say I am surprised.)

 

Besides, I don't make up excuses. I bid what I have. Bridge is not an exact science, but you don't seem to understand that. (Again, I can't say I am surprised.)

[Walddk]

Besides, I don't make up excuses. I bid what I have.

So what do you bid when you actually have a stopper? Do you want partner to guess if you have one or not? Or will he have to understand that your theory is that bridge is not a science, and that you can bid 2NT with any holding?

 

If yes to all those questions: I wish you good luck!

 

Roland

[whereagles]

No alert required. The bid shows willingness to play NT and is therefore not alertable. At least not where I play.

Well, if you alert 2H, explaining it as 4th suit,

... asking for a stopper in heart, and you bid

regular NT without a stopper, ..., which promises

a stopper, than this is a (legal) psych bid, but at least

I would appreciate an alert from your partner,

that you regular psych in this situation.

I am also pretty sure, that this is even in australia

alertable ...

Well, 4th suit doesn't ask for a stopper. It merely asks pard for further information and to keep describing his hand. So 2NT needn't promise a heart stopper.

 

It is routine to bid 2NT on a 5242 or 5341. In a perfect world you'd have the heart stopper, but that's not always the case. Qx of hearts is good enough for me. Maybe even Jx. With xx I'd try and bid something else, though 2NT wouldn't be out of the question if it's the lesser evil, e.g.

 

AJxxx

xx

AKxx

xx

 

I don't really feel like bidding 2/3NT, but I might do it since 2S and 3C aren't very appealing. It would probably depend on what I had for dinner, though ;)

[P_Marlowe]

Imo there are only 3 choices, depending on your agreements:

- 2♠ = the default answer, doesn't show anything else, no special agreements

- 2NT = 5422 distribution, responder can ask for a stopper again (so distribution before controls)

- 3♥ = showing half a stop

 

Personally I'm a shape-freak, so I like the 2nd agreement the most... Without agreements, 2♠ is obvious imo.

You forgot 3D, which some play as the default

rebid instead of 2S, the resaon being,

that 6-4 is more common, showed via bidding

2S than 6-5.

 

Of course I learned 4th suit forcing Acol style,

i.e. 4th suit forcing promises merely invitational

strength, in case the bid is made on the 2 level.

 

... and in this case 3D may be to high.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[whereagles]

Besides, I don't make up excuses. I bid what I have.

So what do you bid when you actually have a stopper? Do you want partner to guess if you have one or not? Or will he have to understand that your theory is that bridge is not a science, and that you can bid 2NT with any holding?

 

If yes to all those questions: I wish you good luck!

Well, part if the answer was my previous post. The rest follows now:

 

I think 2NT on a half-stopper is less of a distortion of your hand's texture than 2S on a bad 5-card suit or 3C on a wimpish doubleton. Pard should keep in mind I might not have a full stopper. He doesn't have to guess anything: if he's worried about the stopper (say he has xx of hearts), he can always bid 3H:

 

1S 2C

2D 2H (4th suit GF)

2NT 3H (are you kidding me with 2NT or not?)

3S = yes!

3NT = no. I really have it ;)

 

Bear in mind this is only MY way of bidding. Obviously you put more stress on stoppers. I don't care much about it because

 

1. Pard, who doesn't have 6 clubs (would have bid 3C), 3 spades (would have supported spades) or 4 diams (would have supported diams), rates to have 3 hearts 99,9% of the time. In that case, even if the hearts are xx opposite xxx, what else do you want to play if not 3NT? Unless someone has extras, any other game will be much more serious trouble.

 

2. Pard has points, so he'll probably have a stopper anyway.

 

As a final note, I once played for about 6 months with a guy who only counted points and kept bidding 3NT whenever the points were there, regardless of his hand being unsuitable or not. Surprise, surprise, he never went down because of lack of stoppers. It is my experience that stoppers are grossly overrated. In practice they seldom matter.

 

That's just my opinion. You can agree or disagree, that's all.

[Walddk]

When you respond to 4th suit, I am certain that most experts' order of priority is:

 

1. Secondary support for responder's major.

 

2. NT with a stopper.

 

3. Secondary support for responder's minor.

 

4. Extra length in own second bid suit.

 

5. Extra length in own first bid suit.

 

6. "Support" of 4th suit.

 

7. Lesser lie.

 

Since we can't live up to 1-6 in the example hand I gave you (1. is irrelevant in this case), we must look at 7. and choose one of 2-6 anyway. 6. is interesting in the sense what 3♥ would mean according to your agreement.

 

So the only question is: Which of the above is the lesser lie.

 

Roland

[whereagles]

Well, I don't see responses to 4th as recipe with priorities. I see it more like a matter of choosing the one bid that decribes your hand better. That's what bidding is all about, no? :)

 

Usually the most descriptive bid is showing 3-card support for responder's suit, since it usually shows a 5431 or similar shape. That is why people give it "priority". Since other bids are less descriptive, they are relegated to 2nd and 3rd choices.

 

And now I'm going to have lunch ;)

[Free]

Imo there are only 3 choices, depending on your agreements:

- 2♠ = the default answer, doesn't show anything else, no special agreements

- 2NT = 5422 distribution, responder can ask for a stopper again (so distribution before controls)

- 3♥ = showing half a stop

 

Personally I'm a shape-freak, so I like the 2nd agreement the most...  Without agreements, 2♠ is obvious imo.

You forgot 3D, which some play as the default

rebid instead of 2S, the resaon being,

that 6-4 is more common, showed via bidding

2S than 6-5.

 

Of course I learned 4th suit forcing Acol style,

i.e. 4th suit forcing promises merely invitational

strength, in case the bid is made on the 2 level.

 

... and in this case 3D may be to high.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

3♦ only shows 5-5, which I don't have...

[P_Marlowe]

Imo there are only 3 choices, depending on your agreements:

- 2♠ = the default answer, doesn't show anything else, no special agreements

- 2NT = 5422 distribution, responder can ask for a stopper again (so distribution before controls)

- 3♥ = showing half a stop

 

Personally I'm a shape-freak, so I like the 2nd agreement the most...  Without agreements, 2♠ is obvious imo.

You forgot 3D, which some play as the default

rebid instead of 2S, the resaon being,

that 6-4 is more common, showed via bidding

2S than 6-5.

 

Of course I learned 4th suit forcing Acol style,

i.e. 4th suit forcing promises merely invitational

strength, in case the bid is made on the 2 level.

 

... and in this case 3D may be to high.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

3♦ only shows 5-5, which I don't have...

Sorry, you are right, that 3D showes only 5-5, (for me as well),

but the argument that showing the 6th card in the mayoris more

important than 5th card in a minor is still valid, altough I do not

subscribe to this theory.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Fluffy]

2NT = weak stopper (about Kxx)

3NT = good stopper (like AJ10)

 

2NT could be a good choice, it is close to 2♠, I think I would pick 2NT but 2♠ is probably the correct bid.

[Free]

Sorry, you are right, that 3D showes only 5-5, (for me as well),

but the argument that showing the 6th card in the mayoris more

important than 5th card in a minor is still valid, altough I do not

subscribe to this theory.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

That's why 2♠ shouldn't show a 6 card suit, but just a garbage bid most of the time. If he bids another suit again, or ♠s, then he sure has 6+♠s, but at this point it's not necessary. ;) I even think this approach (rebidding the first suit after 4th suit forcing as no right response) is quite standard. There have been several threads with similar problems, and most of the time rebidding first suit is used when there's no right bid, especially when you can rebid that suit at 2-level.

[mike777]

Without revealing what my choice would be (could be 2NT, who knows), I'd like to ask all the 2NT bidders:

 

In the post-mortem after the opponents have cashed their 5 heart tricks against 3NT, how are you going to explain to your partner that you thought Qx was a stopper?

 

Roland

I guess later in the bar my spiel will go:

 

1) P we play 2c promises 14+hpc almost always.

2) At the table I tried to figure out your hand with 14HCP that would not rebid 3 clubs, raise D or support Spades with very poor hearts but I kept coming up with more examples of jxx of H.

3) You knew my strong bias toward showing shape or bidding suits where my HCP are.

4) I hoped you would rebid 3h to see if I really had a stopper

5) They never lead H when you bid like this

6) I was thinking how stinky my Baseball Cubs are this year and how the play without a stopper in the bullpen, why can't I play without one.

7)STOPPER, WHO NEEDS STINKING STOPPERS!

8) Ok OK cannot disagree with Marlowe sending me back to novice class.

9) Heck hearts always break 4-4 for you

[awm]

It actually matters a lot whether you play standard or 2/1, as well as some stylistic issues.

 

Playing 2/1 with Li-Chung, in a style which includes a natural, forcing 2NT response to 1♠, I would bid 3♣ over 2♥. Holding 5143 distribution I would virtually always raise clubs directly, since the 2♣ response guarantees five and my shape provides enough "extras" to justify the raise in a game forcing sequence. So after the 2♥ bid, a 3♣ preference is normally on doubleton.

 

Playing a version of standard with Elianna, we use opener's 2♦ rebid as a catch-all showing either a natural diamond suit or any hand without four hearts which is too weak to force game opposite 10+ points (we find this is somewhat more efficient than using 2♠ as the catch-all; it's lower and also permits us to play 2♠ on the 5-2 when we're not going to game). In this style I would bid 3♦ over 2♥ to guarantee a real suit. We also respond 3♣ directly over 1♠ with a game-forcing single-suited club hand, so a 6-2 club fit is unlikely.

 

With many partners, I would bid 2♠ directly with six spades, planning to bid diamonds later on a 6-4 hand. Even though a 2♠ rebid could initially show only five spades, with 5-4 I would obviously bid diamonds at first turn, so 2♠ followed by 3♦ should show 6-4. With this style, I would tend to bid 2♠ over the fourth suit since I can't really have six spades (would've bid those directly).

 

Anyways, I don't think there's one clear answer to this.

[awm]

I guess my point is, there are a lot of questions to be answered here. First of which, are you playing standard or 2/1? Some questions:

 

(1) How many clubs does partner have? If a natural, forcing 2NT was available then it will be 5+. If 2♣ followed by 3♣ is game forcing, then this sequence may deny holding six clubs. Playing standard, a wide range of 4+ may still be possible (since 3♣ rebid would be NF).

 

(2) Is it possible for partner to hold 4+♦? In standard, probably so. In 2/1, probably partner raises to 3♦ with this.

 

(3) Is it possible for partner to hold 3+♠? Most likely the answer is no, but I suppose if 2♠ is a nonforcing preference on doubleton and 3♠ shows a limit raise with club values, then it might be possible.

 

(4) Does 2♦ guarantee four diamonds? Certainly I know some people who like to temporize on three card suits here. Does it deny 6+♠?

 

(5) What would a direct club raise have shown? Does it guarantee three? Four? Does it show extras? Would a 5143 eleven-count (for example) be sufficient to bid 3♣?

 

Depending on the answers to these questions, any of 2♠, 2NT, 3♣, or 3♦ could be reasonable. The idea is:

 

(1) If the 2♦ bid denies 6+ spades and guarantees 4+ diamonds, it seems clear to rebid 2♠ now. Partner will know this is just a punt.

 

(2) If partner's sequence denies holding as many as six clubs, as many as three spades, or as many as four diamonds, then the only possible distribution without a natural heart suit is 2335 exactly. In this case it will be reasonable to bid 2NT as partner might have Jxx or the suit might be 4-4, and it's hard to imagine that the other game options will play particularly well on this pair of hands.

 

(3) If opener would've frequently raised clubs directly with 5143, then 3♣ is available on honor-doubleton. Partner will not take this as a real fit.

 

(4) If 2♦ didn't guarantee a real suit, and/or 2♥ denies holding 4♦s, then 3♦ becomes reasonable as a way to locate the values. Partner will not get overly excited without 4+ cards in support.

[HeartA]

IMO, most of the questions are not really questions.

 

I guess my point is, there are a lot of questions to be answered here. First of which, are you playing standard or 2/1? Some questions:

 

(1) How many clubs does partner have? If a natural, forcing 2NT was available then it will be 5+. If 2♣ followed by 3♣ is game forcing, then this sequence may deny holding six clubs. Playing standard, a wide range of 4+ may still be possible (since 3♣ rebid would be NF).

Be SAYC or 2/1, ♣ should be 5+ in this sequence.

 

(2) Is it possible for partner to hold 4+♦? In standard, probably so. In 2/1, probably partner raises to 3♦ with this.

I don't think so, especially if they play 2/1.

 

(3) Is it possible for partner to hold 3+♠? Most likely the answer is no, but I suppose if 2♠ is a nonforcing preference on doubleton and 3♠ shows a limit raise with club values, then it might be possible.

not possible.

 

(4) Does 2♦ guarantee four diamonds? Certainly I know some people who like to temporize on three card suits here. Does it deny 6+♠?

of course.

 

(5) What would a direct club raise have shown? Does it guarantee three? Four? Does it show extras? Would a 5143 eleven-count (for example) be sufficient to bid 3♣?

usually 4, 3 should be the minimum.

 

Depending on the answers to these questions, any of 2♠, 2NT, 3♣, or 3♦ could be reasonable. The idea is:

 

(1) If the 2♦ bid denies 6+ spades and guarantees 4+ diamonds, it seems clear to rebid 2♠ now. Partner will know this is just a punt.

first of all, 2♦ does not necessarily deny 6+ spades. even if 2♦ denies 6+ spades, 2♠ should show extra strength.

 

(2) If partner's sequence denies holding as many as six clubs, as many as three spades, or as many as four diamonds, then the only possible distribution without a natural heart suit is 2335 exactly. In this case it will be reasonable to bid 2NT as partner might have Jxx or the suit might be 4-4, and it's hard to imagine that the other game options will play particularly well on this pair of hands.

2-3-3-5 is quite possible. 6-card clubs should not be a surprise.

 

(3) If opener would've frequently raised clubs directly with 5143, then 3♣ is available on honor-doubleton. Partner will not take this as a real fit.

With Jx doubleton, I wouldn't raise at this moment.

 

(4) If 2♦ didn't guarantee a real suit, and/or 2♥ denies holding 4♦s, then 3♦ becomes reasonable as a way to locate the values. Partner will not get overly excited without 4+ cards in support.

see comments above.

[luke warm]

wow, maybe i shd have read before i voted... oh well, i voted 3♣.. this denies a stopper in hearts but i'm not sure it doesn't mislead pard into thinking i'm 5143..

 

the only real alternative i see is 3♥, if it's understood as a half-stopper (or stopper ask)

[beatrix45]

Without revealing what my choice would be (could be 2NT, who knows), I'd like to ask all the 2NT bidders:

 

In the post-mortem after the opponents have cashed their 5 heart tricks against 3NT, how are you going to explain to your partner that you thought Qx was a stopper?

 

Roland

;)

A bid of 2NT.

 

Heavens to grandma. Partner advertises a good hand with hearts. It is scared bridge for me to worry about hearts, and scared bridge is losing bridge. If partner does not have hearts on this auction, she better have a plan. How bad can it be?

 

Q5

752

972

AKQ97

 

In my world, better 3♦ or 3♣. If you wanna play a relay system triggered with an artifical bid, then do so. Otherwise, leave my bidding alone!