Bidding Huge balanced hands

[Liversidge]

We play 3 weak 2s and the 2♦ response to 2♣ is a waiting bid, which might have as many as 10 HCP and no good 5 card suit.

 

Suppose I have ♠AK ♥KQ9 ♦AKQxx ♣AQ3, 27 HCP. Partner replies 2♦ (waiting). If I rebid 2NT partner might pass with 0-1 HCP. If I bid 3NT showing 25-26 and partner has a balanced 6 HCP with something like ♠Qxx ♥Jxx ♦xxxx ♣Kxx she will pass while 6NT is a laydown with a combined 33 HCP. And my 3NT rebid prevents a weak responder from showing a second negative.

How do I bid balanced hands with 25+ HCP after partner responds 2♦.

[apollo1201]

Some players play that a 2H rebid is a relay to 2S, whereupon you can rebid 2NT to show 24+ balanced, GF, while 2NT is 22-23 and can be passed. Or some others attribute different point ranges between a direct 3NT over 2D, or indirect (via the 2H relay). Of course, hands with H need to be bid differently following this scheme...

 

Finally, some players have given up the weak 2D due to its low preempriveness, to distinguish « almost GF » hands (unbalanced 2 tricks shy of game, 22-23 NT) with a 2C opening, and GF hands (balanced 24+, unbalanced 1 trick shy of game) with a 2D opening.

 

With the hand you gave, 27 with a good 5-cd diamond that can be upgraded to 28, you would force a little to reach 4NT. In case your partner with 6 HCPs hasn’t already bid 4NT, quantitative, in case you have a little more than 24. So slam would be reached whatever the method.

[Cyberyeti]

Kokish - the 2♥ relay described above (if you actually have hearts you rebid something other than NT over 2♠) we find very useful.

 

We actually just keep bidding up in 2 point ranges so for us:

 

2N = good 19-21

2♣-2♦-2N = 22-23

2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠-2N = 24-25

2♣-2♦-3N = 26-27

2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠-3N = 28-29

 

And you have to discuss your system over the 3N rebid.

[steve2005]

If not playing Kokish can have 2C-2D-4N=27-28

If not playing Gambling can have 3N=27-28

[Vampyr]

Kokish - the 2♥ relay described above (if you actually have hearts you rebid something other than NT over 2♠) we find very useful.

 

We actually just keep bidding up in 2 point ranges so for us:

 

2N = good 19-21

2♣-2♦-2N = 22-23

2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠-2N = 24-25

2♣-2♦-3N = 26-27

2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠-3N = 28-29

 

And you have to discuss your system over the 3N rebid.

 

We find it much more useful to split the 2♣ range so that your third auction is 20-21/22. This allows things like playing at the 2-level in a major or the 3-level in a minor.

 

And your second auction would just be 25+ for us; evidently we don’t get as good hands as you do!

[Tramticket]

Very big hands are memorable and good fun. But they are also very infrequent.

 

You can play Kokish - it is a very good system. But my advice to players in the N/B category is that there are other things to worry about first and Kokish is a lower priority.

 

A reasonable alternative on the given hand is to open 2C and rebid 3D (It's not as if you are ashamed of your diamond quality). You can always bid BY later.

[Cyberyeti]

We find it much more useful to split the 2♣ range so that your third auction is 20-21/22. This allows things like playing at the 2-level in a major or the 3-level in a minor.

 

And your second auction would just be 25+ for us; evidently we don’t get as good hands as you do!

 

We play 2♣ GF unless balanced so never play in 2M.

[Stephen Tu]

I find it very weird to utilize Kokish to establish 2 pt range NT ladder. I thought the original development of Kokish relay was to put all 25+ NT into 2c-2d-2h-2s-2nt, so that responder had utilization of the normal gadgets over 2nt to find suit fits at a sane level. These 2 pt ladder systems seem to sacrifice this for these tight ranges. This also frees 2c-2d-3nt as a simply "to play" bid with a running suit + stoppers opposite 2d which IMO is best played as limited.

Are people really seeing frequent major positive swings by having 2 pt ladder vs. your peers who don't?

 

I just play 2c-2d-2nt = 22-24, 2c-2d-2h-2s-2nt as 25+, with 28+ opener bids again over game signoffs. Over 2c-2d-2h-2s-2nt you can also theoretically have sequence for responder to warn 28+ that he is really broke, to avoid getting higher than 3nt.

[Vampyr]

We play 2♣ GF unless balanced so never play in 2M.

 

Uh, we play the same. I don’t see the relevance.

[Cyberyeti]

Uh, we play the same. I don’t see the relevance.

 

In that case I totally don't understand your "We find it much more useful to split the 2♣ range so that your third auction is 20-21/22. This allows things like playing at the 2-level in a major or the 3-level in a minor." - how and in what auction ?

[Vampyr]

In that case I totally don't understand your "We find it much more useful to split the 2♣ range so that your third auction is 20-21/22. This allows things like playing at the 2-level in a major or the 3-level in a minor." - how and in what auction ?

 

2♣-2♥-P.

[Cyberyeti]

2♣-2♥-P.

 

OK, we play 2♥ as a positive so don't have that option

[Vampyr]

OK, we play 2♥ as a positive so don't have that option

 

With your 2♣ balanced openers having a higher minimum that ours, you might find major-suit negatives more frequent (and possibly more useful). To play opposite 22-23 defines the hand even more than to play opposite 20-21/22.

[fourdad]

Just use 3NT as 25-27 HCP. Perfectly descriptive of your hand with one simple opening and your partner runs the auction.

[Vampyr]

Just use 3NT as 25-27 HCP. Perfectly descriptive of your hand with one simple opening and your partner runs the auction.

 

The frequency of this is very poor indeed. We find this bid useful as a good 4M opening. Others prefer Gambling 3NT. My guess is that even the latter comes up more frequently than 25-27 or even 25+.

For those who have trouble showing their very strong hands, Multi might come in handy or even Mexican 2♦. While we’re at it, there’s always Benji!

[nekthen]

The advantage of all sequences ending at 2N to show range, is that you then have the standard set of responses. Puppet, RSTs etc. 3N rebids take away the conversation

[Left2Right]

As usual. I offer what no one else has: Whatever method you and partner decide to try, practice it at a BBO bidding or teaching table using one of my handy dandy constraint files. Click this link.

 

After clicking the link that leads to the code, read through the comments (the lines starting with a # sign). And on the first line after that, change "theLow=" to whatever lower part of the notrump range you want the dealer to deal; and change "theHigh=" to a number that is at least three points higher than the low. Example: theLow=27 theHigh=30

 

If you haven't used these constraints before, review my YouTube "how-to" video at this link.

 

Other writers were certainly correct that the Super Notrump hands are rare, but isn't it nice to know that you and your best partners will be prepared where others who have dismissed these hands are not.

 

Cheers.

[HardVector]

We play 3 weak 2s and the 2♦ response to 2♣ is a waiting bid, which might have as many as 10 HCP and no good 5 card suit.

 

Suppose I have ♠AK ♥KQ9 ♦AKQxx ♣AQ3, 27 HCP. Partner replies 2♦ (waiting). If I rebid 2NT partner might pass with 0-1 HCP. If I bid 3NT showing 25-26 and partner has a balanced 6 HCP with something like ♠Qxx ♥Jxx ♦xxxx ♣Kxx she will pass while 6NT is a laydown with a combined 33 HCP. And my 3NT rebid prevents a weak responder from showing a second negative.

How do I bid balanced hands with 25+ HCP after partner responds 2♦.

The "standard" treatment after a 2d waiting bid is your show balanced hands in ranges. 2n: 22-24; 3n: 25-27; 4n: 28-29; 5n: 30-31. Usually with 32 or more in your hand, just go for the slam. Needless to say, this is very inefficient, and you should look to improve this when you can handle it. The easiest convention to learn for this is Kokish relays, which someone I think mentioned already. Bidding 4n or 5n is extremely rare, but 3n comes up occasionally. If you retain this understanding, it's important to discuss continuations with your partner. For instance; 2c-2d-3n(25-27)-4c?4d?4h?4s?4n? what do all those bids mean? They should be Stayman/transfer/transfer/minors/quantitative.

[Vampyr]

The easiest convention to learn for this is Kokish relays, which someone I think mentioned already.

 

Yes, the whole thread has been about Kokish.

[HardVector]

Yes, the whole thread has been about Kokish.

You will note I was responding to the original question.

[rhaas]

We just play:

 

2NT = 20-22

2♣-2♦-2NT = 23-25

2♣-2♦-3NT = 26-28

 

We also play that 2♣-2♥ is an immediate double negative (0-3 HCP, no Ace or King) so 2♣-2♦-2NT is game-forcing -- partner has already promised sufficient values for game.

 

I think it's a mistake to focus too much on high card points. The original poster was worried about partner turning up with ♠Qxx ♥Jxx ♦xxxx ♣Kxx, but if partner has instead ♠Qxxx ♥Jxxx ♦xx ♣Kxx, you need a 3-3 break in one of the red suits to make 6NT. But if partner has ♥Axxxxxx and out, neither 6H nor 6NT is in any danger unless hearts break 4-0, and even then you may be able to set up diamonds or fall back on the club finesse. So, it's often partner's shape that is the critical ingredient, more than exact HCP strength.

 

But that being said, if partner has no useful shape and just wants to count HCP, that works fine too, if you use 3-point ranges. If it goes 2♣-2♦-3NT showing 26-28 (or 25-27) and partner has 5 (or 6) HCP and a balance hand, 4NT by partner gives you the option to either pass or bid 6NT depending on whether you have a maximum or minimum. With 2-point ranges this is a lot less useful. Partner's strength is already so narrowly constrained that you're not really asking a meaningful question.

[Vampyr]

You will note I was responding to the original question.

 

Congratulations.

[rookil]

We play 3 weak 2s and the 2♦ response to 2♣ is a waiting bid, which might have as many as 10 HCP and no good 5 card suit.

 

Suppose I have ♠AK ♥KQ9 ♦AKQxx ♣AQ3, 27 HCP. Partner replies 2♦ (waiting). If I rebid 2NT partner might pass with 0-1 HCP. If I bid 3NT showing 25-26 and partner has a balanced 6 HCP with something like ♠Qxx ♥Jxx ♦xxxx ♣Kxx she will pass while 6NT is a laydown with a combined 33 HCP. And my 3NT rebid prevents a weak responder from showing a second negative.

How do I bid balanced hands with 25+ HCP after partner responds 2♦.

 

I prefer not to use 2D waiting. Most of the better partnerships I play in show controls over 2C. I.e. 2♦=0controls 2♥=1control 2♠=2controls 2NT=3controls 3♣=4controls etc. where K=1control and A=2controls. With the hand in question, if partner responds 2♦, showing no A's or K's, you sign off in 3NT as you know that slam has less than 50% chance. If partner responds 2♥, showing one K, you know he has the K of clubs,(the only one missing) and you can investigate a small slam. If partner bids 2♠, showing one ace or two k's, you know he has the A of hearts (the only one missing,he can't have 2 K's)and you will almost surely bid a slam. And if partner bids 2NT, showing an A and a K, or three K's, you know he has both of the missing controls and will probably bid a grand.

 

It seems to me that it is much easier for the big hand to find out a few things about responder's hand than it is for responder to find out lots of things about opener's big hand. The most relevant things for slam bidding are often controls followed by support for a long suit.

[fromageGB]

Opener opening or rebidding 2NT with a 2-point range is extremely desirable, as responder has to make an instant game decision. Kokish is good if you have no other choice, but the downside is that it it tends to destroy constructive bidding when opener has a 2-suiter with hearts. Having said that, a compulsory 2♦ tends to destroy that as well, so for the novice/beginner do look at Kokish.

 

With a 3NT rebid, however, responder does not have an instant game decision to make, so the bid can be wider ranging. Responder will be using 4NT and 5NT as slam invitations, so the 3NT rebid can be happily made with a 3-point range. I play all 2NTs as 2-point ranges, but a very simple

3NT = 25-27

4NT = 28-30

5NT = 31-33

6NT = 34-36

7NT = 37. (Or 37-40 if you are dealt 14 cards)

Not that I have ever had anything greater than 3NT, but it is comforting to know I can bid something with no strain on memory : just 3-point range steps.

 

A couple of contributors have mentioned bids in reply to 3NT, but I play simple puppet stayman and 4-suit transfers (spades to clubs). Of course everything is a level higher than normal, but you are at least in game anyway.

[Cyberyeti]

I prefer not to use 2D waiting. Most of the better partnerships I play in show controls over 2C. I.e. 2♦=0controls 2♥=1control 2♠=2controls 2NT=3controls 3♣=4controls etc. where K=1control and A=2controls. With the hand in question, if partner responds 2♦, showing no A's or K's, you sign off in 3NT as you know that slam has less than 50% chance. If partner responds 2♥, showing one K, you know he has the K of clubs,(the only one missing) and you can investigate a small slam. If partner bids 2♠, showing one ace or two k's, you know he has the A of hearts (the only one missing,he can't have 2 K's)and you will almost surely bid a slam. And if partner bids 2NT, showing an A and a K, or three K's, you know he has both of the missing controls and will probably bid a grand.

 

It seems to me that it is much easier for the big hand to find out a few things about responder's hand than it is for responder to find out lots of things about opener's big hand. The most relevant things for slam bidding are often controls followed by support for a long suit.

 

Nobody any good plays this, it may work on this hand but imagine (with opener holding something more normal) the auction starting 2♣-P-2♠-3M now opener can be describing his hand at the 4 level, god forbid responder has some sort of 5-5 hand. Most of the time you'd have got a 2♠ overcall over 2♣-P-2♦ and had a much easier time.