To Brexit

[cherdano]

The one about the orange juice where you provided a lengthy discourse on why the article on OJ tariffs was inaccurate but failed to address why we would need OJ tariffs after Brexit.

I never wrote much about OJ tariffs - that was Zel. But I still don't know where he shot the messenger.

 

Also foreigners already here if they could be bothered to apply would not be forced to leave, just new ones wouldn't be allowed to enter to settle.

Of course it's hard to tell with the cheese-Brit because he keeps shifting his stated position (e.g. in one post he says he'd accept a lower GDP per head is fine, in another just a lower GBP resulting from a lower population count). But when he writes he would like a lower overall population I'd imagine he'd like to achieve that by asking some of the people currently living in Britain to leave; and I don't expect he'd ask those with British passports.

 

I am not sure you realise how radical some of the positions advocated by the cheese-Brit in this thread are. He is happy with a (1) no-deal Brexit that (2) lowers total GDP and (3) lowers GPD per head and (4) leads to a split of the UK as long as it means less foreigners in the UK. That's part of the reason why there is little value in his contributions to this thread - there are already so many complicated divergent mainstream views on Brexit that I see little value from exploring the views of a tiny fringe minority.

[helene_t]

Very bad news today.

 

LibDems celebrarting that they got one more MP and that the government thereby lost its majority. But there is something more important at stake.

 

With Corbyn’s support, BoJo will get his election and probably win a right extremist majority, since the right extremist vote will be united with Farrage backing Bojo, while the moderate and leftist vote will be split.

 

Edit: Oh at least BoJo didn't seem to get his election. So maybe not so bad after all.

Edited September 4, 2019 by helene_t

[FelicityR]

Very bad news today.

 

LibDems celebrarting that they got one more MP and that the government thereby lost its majority. But there is something more important at stake.

 

With Corbyn’s support, BoJo will get his election and probably win a right extremist majority, since the right extremist vote will be united with Farrage backing Bojo, while the moderate and leftist vote will be split.

 

Very bad news all round. I despair of all of the politicians in the UK. They really don't seem to understand the gut feeling of the electorate, or for that matter what the word democracy actually means.

 

After last night's heated and ill-mannered debate, and vote in the House of Commons - what must the rest of the world think of our politicians watching that: so much for civilisation - my husband, who at his age, can't take things seriously any more had the perfect anecdote this morning. "Forget about Guy Fawkes, who failed," he said, "just watch this instead, Fluff (my pet name)"

 

 

Yes, that YouTube clip did make me laugh and cheered me up no end this morning :)

[helene_t]

I despair of all of the politicians in the UK.

That's one thing most of us can probably agree on.

 

We have Swinson who at first made it a cardinal issue who should lead the caretaker government (although she seems to have moderated her position since).

 

And then we have Lucas who suggested a female-only cabinet.

 

I don't understand how "taking back control" can be an efficient slogan for Brexit. Even if we forget that UK always had control, that UK is losing control now due to lack of leverage in trade negotiations, and that Bojo and May both tried to put parliament out of control. I mean, with such British politicians, wouldn't it be wonderful if UK was actually ruled from Brussels?

[Lovera]

I don't understand how "taking back control" can be an efficient slogan for Brexit. Even if we forget that UK always had control, that UK is losing control now due to lack of leverage in trade negotiations, and that Bojo and May both tried to put parliament out of control. I mean, with such British politicians, wouldn't it be wonderful if UK was actually ruled from Brussels?

 

(...)"The British Prime Minister Theresa May has, in fact, on several occasions declared that he wants to "regain control over his own law and put a sharp end to the jurisdiction of the EU Court of Justice in the United Kingdom". This refers in particular to the speech given on 17 January 2017 by the British Prime Minister Theresa May (The Rt. Hon Theresa May, The Government's negotiating objectives for exiting the EU: PM speech, Lancaster House, 17 January 2017, retrieved 22 May 2017) , whose complete transcription can be found at https://www.gov.uk/g...the-eu-pmspeech, https://www.gov.uk/ government / speeches / the-Governments-negotiating-objectives-for-exitingthe-eu-pm-speech. This is one of the most emblematic expressions: "we will take back control of our laws and bring an end to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice in Britain". On this point see D. GIRALDIN, Brexit and European Court of Justice, at Eurojus.it, 2018"(...).

[cherdano]

But "take back control" doesn't make sense in a globalised world. Say after Brexit the UK wants to "take back control" over bike safety standards that every bike sold in the UK has to satisfy. You could make the standards more lose then elsewhere in Europe - well, companies won't produce tailor-made bikes just for the UK market if they don't have to, and hence in practice the UK just ends up with bikes conforming to the Europeans standards anway.

Or the UK could adopt stricter standards. Well, some companies won't produce tailor-made just for the UK markets. Others will, but will sell them at a higher price because of their extra effort and the lower competition.

 

So the rational thing to do for the UK after Brexit is just to copy-paste, in full control, European bike safety standards into its own regulations. And in addition bike manufacturers will lobby the EU to push exactly for that in free trade regulations. Wouldn't it be better, and more in control, to just have a seat at the table and lobby for reasonable (i.e., effective and not overly burdensome) bike safety regulations in the EU?

[Lovera]

But "take back control" doesn't make sense in a globalised world. Say after Brexit the UK wants to "take back control" over bike safety standards that every bike sold in the UK has to satisfy. You could make the standards more lose then elsewhere in Europe - well, companies won't produce tailor-made bikes just for the UK market if they don't have to, and hence in practice the UK just ends up with bikes conforming to the Europeans standards anway.

Or the UK could adopt stricter standards. Well, some companies won't produce tailor-made just for the UK markets. Others will, but will sell them at a higher price because of their extra effort and the lower competition.

 

So the rational thing to do for the UK after Brexit is just to copy-paste, in full control, European bike safety standards into its own regulations. And in addition bike manufacturers will lobby the EU to push exactly for that in free trade regulations. Wouldn't it be better, and more in control, to just have a seat at the table and lobby for reasonable (i.e., effective and not overly burdensome) bike safety regulations in the EU?

 

However, if what you say is equivalent to "the creation of a post-Brexit free trade area, with common rules, at least for industrial goods" being a sort of "soft Brexit" (which did not have many followers) it had against David Davis and also Boris Johnson, thus proving to be somewhat impractical in my opinion.

[Lovera]

https://www.theguard...r-boris-johnson

Now it is obvious that everyone prefers to have an agreement, but to do this we need to implement actions in this sense and not just to ask. But why don't you accept an agreement? Because once realized and seen, we want to change it further in our favor, as I think is the position of the EU when it says that it cannot be renegotiated (but only interpreted, clarified or deepened). Or perhaps it is not accepted because there is something "serious/grave" in it that the counterpart, having made explicit, is resistant to change? But in this case, perhaps this can be a point to legally attach to the competent office.

[Lovera]



FOREIGN

Brexit, Merkel: An agreement can still be reached

of MAD11 September 2019

Berlin (Germany), 11 Sept. (LaPresse / AFP) - German Chancellor Angela Merkel said she believed that an agreement could still be reached with Great Britain on an exit ordered by the EU, and undertook to fight for an agreement.

Speaking to the Bundestag lower house, the German leader said there is still time to find an agreement.

© Copyright LaPresse - Reserved Reproduction

[Winstonm]



FOREIGN

Brexit, Merkel: An agreement can still be reached

of MAD11 September 2019

Berlin (Germany), 11 Sept. (LaPresse / AFP) - German Chancellor Angela Merkel said she believed that an agreement could still be reached with Great Britain on an exit ordered by the EU, and undertook to fight for an agreement.

Speaking to the Bundestag lower house, the German leader said there is still time to find an agreement.

© Copyright LaPresse - Reserved Reproduction

 

How does Angela Merkel solve the problem of the border?

[FelicityR]

I watched this again today. This is moderate Labour's [Party] film on Brexit: Lexit.

 

 

You do wonder who is driving the cogs of the Remain campaign? As much as I don't have much affinity or love towards the Conservative Party, there are dark forces trying by any means possible to thwart Boris Johnson's and our country's exit from the EU. If we don't leave, then both my husband and I have promised never to vote for anything political ever again as democracy will be dead.

 

On a different note, we took a bus ride through our nearest city today - I live on the rural outskirts - and looked at all the deprivation, weeds, graffiti, closed down shops, litter, etc. and the sheer grottiness of the place. It's as if nobody cared about what was happening in this country. You can blame various politicians or different parties, but we do need a strong figurehead to lead this country. Given the choice between Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn, I could never vote for the latter. As for voting for Boris Johnson, that's unlikely to happen either, even if we finally leave the EU.

 

Difficult times indeed...

[Lovera]

How does Angela Merkel solve the problem of the border?

 

Can help this one ?https://www.theguard...-break-deadlock

[FelicityR]

Can help this one ?https://www.theguard...-break-deadlock

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-rules-out-northern-20033703

 

Oh well...what next?

[cherdano]

Felicity, I have a simple question. What does Brexit mean? Does it mean

- a customs union with the EU, or

- a customs border between NI and Ireland, or

- a customs border between NI and GB?

What do you think it means to the majority of the 52% who voted in favour of Brexit? Which side do you think would have won in a referendum between Remain and this specific version of Brexit?

[Cyberyeti]

Felicity, I have a simple question. What does Brexit mean? Does it mean

- a customs union with the EU, or

- a customs border between NI and Ireland, or

- a customs border between NI and GB?

What do you think it means to the majority of the 52% who voted in favour of Brexit? Which side do you think would have won in a referendum between Remain and this specific version of Brexit?

 

IMO - not the first, one thing the vast majority of Brexiteers agreed on was the end of things which could not end while retaining a customs union

 

I honestly don't think many people considered the second or third before the vote, but would go with either.

 

I think the preference would be a soft border between NI amd Eire managed like some other borders with pre authorisations (and that would certainly be the DUP's preference).

[Lovera]

IMO - not the first, one thing the vast majority of Brexiteers agreed on was the end of things which could not end while retaining a customs union

 

I honestly don't think many people considered the second or third before the vote, but would go with either.

 

I think the preference would be a soft border between NI amd Eire managed like some other borders with pre authorisations (and that would certainly be the DUP's preference).

 

What do you mean when talking about :"the preference would be a soft border between NI amd Eire managed like some other borders with pre authorisations (and that would certainly be the DUP's preference)."?

[Cyberyeti]

What do you mean when talking about :"the preference would be a soft border between NI amd Eire managed like some other borders with pre authorisations (and that would certainly be the DUP's preference)."?

 

Something close to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway%E2%80%93Sweden_border, but with almost all the freight declarations done in advance

[cherdano]

Something close to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway%E2%80%93Sweden_border, but with almost all the freight declarations done in advance

So you are in favour of a Norway-style soft Brexit?

[FelicityR]

Felicity, I have a simple question. What does Brexit mean? Does it mean

- a customs union with the EU, or

- a customs border between NI and Ireland, or

- a customs border between NI and GB?

What do you think it means to the majority of the 52% who voted in favour of Brexit? Which side do you think would have won in a referendum between Remain and this specific version of Brexit?

 

I readily admit that both my husband were less aware of the difficulty this border issue would cause between the UK and Ireland when we voted. Before the vote we saw that Northern Ireland was staunchly remain, we were aware of the reasons behind it, notably The Good Friday Agreement, but I am one of those people who believes that there is a solution to every problem.

 

Brexit means a lot more than the issue of one border, and I'm sure many people would agree with that. I was brought up in the era of butter mountains and wine lakes and the Common Agricultural Policy. Add all the sometimes unnecessary red tape and bureaucracy that the EU generates, and the profligate waste of money on some of the EU projects, and we just felt "enough's enough".

 

Our own government (whatever party is in power) creates enough red tape and bureaucracy itself, and quite happily spends like no tomorrow. We do not need another political entity on top of that doing the same thing.

 

I liked the initial idea of a joining a Common Market back in 1973. But what the EU has become, in our opinion, is something many people didn't want or ascribe to.

[Cyberyeti]

So you are in favour of a Norway-style soft Brexit?

 

No, just in favour of that sort of border methodology, a version of which I think can apply regardless of the sort of Brexit.

[Lovera]

Something close to https://en.wikipedia...93Sweden_border, but with almost all the freight declarations done in advance

 

Than anything as the "Common Travel Area" ?

[Winstonm]

I readily admit that both my husband were less aware of the difficulty this border issue would cause between the UK and Ireland when we voted. Before the vote we saw that Northern Ireland was staunchly remain, we were aware of the reasons behind it, notably The Good Friday Agreement, but I am one of those people who believes that there is a solution to every problem.

 

Brexit means a lot more than the issue of one border, and I'm sure many people would agree with that. I was brought up in the era of butter mountains and wine lakes and the Common Agricultural Policy. Add all the sometimes unnecessary red tape and bureaucracy that the EU generates, and the profligate waste of money on some of the EU projects, and we just felt "enough's enough".

 

Our own government (whatever party is in power) creates enough red tape and bureaucracy itself, and quite happily spends like no tomorrow. We do not need another political entity on top of that doing the same thing.

 

I liked the initial idea of a joining a Common Market back in 1973. But what the EU has become, in our opinion, is something many people didn't want or ascribe to.

 

I have lived long enough to understand that actions have consequences, both good and bad. So if the choice is to leave, then leave and live with whatever happens. However, the bigger question to me is whether or not the vote showed the genuine sentiment or was it a reflection of misinformation and propaganda.

 

I would hope all in the UK would want the assurance that leave actually was the democratic choice.

[Cyberyeti]

Than anything as the "Common Travel Area" ?

 

Don't understand what you're trying to say. Bear in mind the republic of Ireland is OUTSIDE the Schengen area already.

[FelicityR]

I have lived long enough to understand that actions have consequences, both good and bad. So if the choice is to leave, then leave and live with whatever happens. However, the bigger question to me is whether or not the vote showed the genuine sentiment or was it a reflection of misinformation and propaganda.

 

I would hope all in the UK would want the assurance that leave actually was the democratic choice.

 

That's difficult to say. I think that both sides of the Remain/Leave argument were fed misinformation and propaganda. I have now met intelligent people who voted Remain in 2016, who after three years of (as my husband says, please excuse the language) 'piddling about' would now vote Leave. And, there must be others who voted Leave who no doubt would now vote Remain.

 

Immigration was a big issue in 2016. Many people probably voted on that single issue, that's for sure. The other major issues probably came secondary in their consideration. I have an open mind about immigration because I worked in the National Health Service, and it would never be able to function without overseas workers, most who were excellent. However, on the flip side, many NHS services are now stretched to the limit due to extra people who have chosen to live in this country. I remember not so many years ago when you could get a general, not emergency, doctor's appointment within a couple of days. Now it is a couple of weeks wait in most major towns and cities. Social housing, too, now has incredibly long waiting lists, and many families are ending up in sub-standard housing, cheap hotels, or bed and breakfast establishments.

 

However, well before the 2016 referendum both my husband and myself had thought membership of the EU as 'surplus to requirements'. It has its good points, and it has its bad points, but as an organisation it makes sure it looks after 'its own' and doesn't take kindly to criticism. That's why we voted Leave.

[Lovera]

Don't understand what you're trying to say. Bear in mind the republic of Ireland is OUTSIDE the Schengen area already.

 

"Common Travel Area (area of ​​free circulation without any physical infrastructure and controls) allows that citizens of the United Kingdom and Ireland to continue to move freely between the two countries". It is seems as you said about minimal/flow controls.