An interesting bidding decision

[TheoKole]

[hv=pc=n&s=s98532hkq2daqcqt6&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=2s(Weak%206%20to%2010%20points%206%20card%20suit)d(take%20out)p]133|200|Interesting bidding decision[/hv]

 

I have a strict 4 rules I use whenever I have the option of passing out a low level take out double for penalties. I'll post my decision of what I did and the reasons for it after people have had the chance to cast a vote.

 

Cheers

[wank]

3nt

[LBengtsson]

3nt

 

opponents could take first 6 tricks, but on probability partner more likelier to have stiff than void so opponents cant take tricks except if suit solid or lead overtake. weak two opener not made on solid suit so I bid 3nt also.

[Tramticket]

What is the difference between 3NT and 2NT (leb) followed by 3NT in your partnership?

[BillPatch]

At Imps I'll take the Probable +300at IMPS. Assuming that we are playing standard lebensohl (direct denies), I'll show the stopper for 3NT by bidding 2NT first. By the way, the scrambling 2NT is quite different than lebensohl, so I am unsure about what we are supposed to have agreed upon reading the 2NT part of the question.

[TheoKole]

I added the 2NT description because I wanted the bid to be reflective for the reader's agreements, not MY agreements. If the reader's use 2NT as Leibenshoel or as a scramble in their partnership is up to them.

 

Regards T

[Tramticket]

I added the 2NT description because I wanted the bid to be reflective for the reader's agreements, not MY agreements. If the reader's use 2NT as Leibenshoel or as a scramble in their partnership is up to them.

 

Regards T

 

Most of the time they will not be able to run 5+ tricks. Most players will not have a solid suit for a weak two (they will often be able to open at the one-level instead). So I am gambling that partner has a stop or enough to make my holding into a stop. Or possibly the suit is blocked. So I am aiming for 3NT. I will bid 2NT (leb) and then follow up with 3NT - this shows a stop (for us).

[TheoKole]

Most of the time they will not be able to run 5+ tricks. Most players will not have a solid suit for a weak two (they will often be able to open at the one-level instead). So I am gambling that partner has a stop or enough to make my holding into a stop. Or possibly the suit is blocked. So I am aiming for 3NT. I will bid 2NT (leb) and then follow up with 3NT - this shows a stop (for us).

 

For anyone who bid 3NT what do you do if you get Xed by RHO to indicate an honor? Will you still chance the 3NT bid or will you deal with it later if it happens?

 

Regards T

[GrahamJson]

What is the difference between 3NT and 2NT (leb) followed by 3NT in your partnership?

 

The way I play it, they both show a stop but a direct 3NT denies the other major whilsy 2NT 3NT shows four cards in it.

 

I think it is more common to play that a direct 3NT denies the major and a stop. That seems counterintuitive to me and capable of being misremembered. Hence in all the sequences I play 3NT always shows a stop, which seems logical.

 

Playing my way you can bid a direct 3NT if you think five small is a stop, or cue bid 3S if you think it isn’t. My choice would be 3S as I think I hold enough for six to be making.its close though.

[apollo1201]

4H in 43 with the long trump hand tapped / overruffed doesn’t seem a piece of cake. And 5m is still a long way where we might not even have a fit.

3NT should have decent chances unless a timid W with AKQJTx contented himself with 2S, or if partner is void and E has Hx and W knows to underlead rather than try an honor from his inner or upper sequence (not sure X conveys this message, and if it is Jx or Tx, I am on the good way).

If I pass, most likely outcome is 300 or 100 for us (5 or 6 trumps plus a side trick). Not enough! And saying something leaves the door open for partner to bid again if she haves « the rest » (although in that case, the 3NT bid will make her fear I have lost values in S).

[Tramticket]

The way I play it, they both show a stop but a direct 3NT denies the other major whilsy 2NT 3NT shows four cards in it.

 

Yes, this makes far more sense than our methods. To be honest we chose to use the same methods as after leb over a 1NT overcall - for ease of memory.

[Tramticket]

For anyone who bid 3NT what do you do if you get Xed by RHO to indicate an honor? Will you still chance the 3NT bid or will you deal with it later if it happens?

 

Pass. But if partner is staring at a void she might remove it.

 

For what it's worth, I would play that a double asks for a different suit.

[saramoran]

I wasn't sure....

[apollo1201]

Pass. But if partner is staring at a void she might remove it.

 

For what it's worth, I would play that a double asks for a different suit.

That is why I said I am not sure X conveys « lead S » but rather « find my suit ». I guess there is no consensus here on what use is best for X.

[PhilG007]

[hv=pc=n&s=s98532hkq2daqcqt6&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=2s(Weak%206%20to%2010%20points%206%20card%20suit)d(take%20out)p]133|200|Interesting bidding decision[/hv]

 

I have a strict 4 rules I use whenever I have the option of passing out a low level take out double for penalties.  I'll post my decision of what I did and the reasons for it after people have had the chance to cast a vote.

 

Cheers

[miamijd]

3NT.

 

The opponents' suit is going to block unless LHO has AKQJTx. If RHO has two of the top five honors, it always blocks. And if RHO has one of the top five, then it will block unless LHO leads low. But he won't, because he will have

 

KQJTxx

AQJTxx

AKJTxx

AKQTxx

AKQJxx

 

You're telling me you're going to lead low with one of those combinations? No, you won't, you'll lead an honor and block the suit or else establish a trick for me. Hey, that 8 is a big card if RHO has Ax or Kx.

 

So I'm not losing the first five tricks. Hopefully, partner will have enough so that I can make nine, but if he doesn't, there's no guarantee 2S is going set.

[rmnka447]

I think you just close your eyes and bid 3 NT both at matchpoints and IMPS.

 

Partner is advertising about an opening bid, so game should have a play somewhere.

 

If partner is void in ♠ and decides to pull it, you got values in support.

[Winstonm]

Pass for these reasons.

 

The Moysian in hearts won't play well unless we have all the outside cards - unlikely.

Partner's shortness in spades argues for his acting with slightly less than normal values.

+ 300 or +100 is better than a minus.

[arthh]

I think the (Bob) Hamman rule applies here. As I understand it the rule goes like this: if 3 NT is a possible contract, bid it.

[Cyberyeti]

3NT.

 

The opponents' suit is going to block unless LHO has AKQJTx. If RHO has two of the top five honors, it always blocks. And if RHO has one of the top five, then it will block unless LHO leads low. But he won't, because he will have

 

KQJTxx

AQJTxx

AKJTxx

AKQTxx

AKQJxx

 

You're telling me you're going to lead low with one of those combinations? No, you won't, you'll lead an honor and block the suit or else establish a trick for me. Hey, that 8 is a big card if RHO has Ax or Kx.

 

So I'm not losing the first five tricks. Hopefully, partner will have enough so that I can make nine, but if he doesn't, there's no guarantee 2S is going set.

 

Yes, but in the second part of the question, do you remove when it's doubled by the partner of the 2♠ bid to show an honour as now he does lead small from many of these holdings.

[apollo1201]

Yes, but in the second part of the question, do you remove when it's doubled by the partner of the 2♠ bid to show an honour as now he does lead small from many of these holdings.

Is it so clear that the (balancing) X of 3NT says I have a S honor? Usually the X of a cue-bid says that (so partner can safely lead the suit). Reading other persons’ comments, they don’t seem to play this and more sth like pls find my suit and lead it (a suit bid or implied by dummy usually).

[msjennifer]

Sir,I am not at all surprised that this problem has got quite a few cleanly STUMPED.(a term from the game of Cricket, one of my hobbies).It is very easy to bid if one can see partners hand but unfortunately one can not.I posed this problem to my trainees and they too were nonplussed..What is my polite and humble request it to put yourself in the doublers seat and try to imagine hands with which you will make a TOD in a vulnerable position..Is it not likely that the partner of 2S opener is a complete Yarborough or say only has QX of spades and doubles if you bid 3NT.Will your partner dare remove holding x or void in S and say 1444 hand? .In my personal opinion this hand is a toss up between PASS and, most of you will scoff,4H..This hand reminds me of an almost similar hand where I held xxxx of S and in heart suit only AJx and was the only one to bid 4H and dummy came down with 9754 of hearts getting a clean top.i beg of you to fully understand that I ,hereby ,am not boasting and trying to prove other pairs wrong but only humbly putting forward a different viewpoint or say aspect so kindly pardon me.

[Cyberyeti]

Is it so clear that the (balancing) X of 3NT says I have a S honor? Usually the X of a cue-bid says that (so partner can safely lead the suit). Reading other persons’ comments, they don’t seem to play this and more sth like pls find my suit and lead it (a suit bid or implied by dummy usually).

 

I agree, but that was the question the OP asked.

[TheoKole]

Thanks for all the replies. I was really interested how many people would pass for penalties. I thought about it but it violated 1 of my 4 rules. So the decision rests as to take the high road for game or the low road for part score knowing that the long trump hand will be forced with spade leads (if you can actually find a fit).

 

Since I tend towards optimism in these types of hands, I bid 3NT hoping the suit wold block. This was Xed by RHO to indicate a ♠ lead promising an honor and I knew I was in trouble. I pulled to 4 ♣ and luckily found a 5 card suit in dummy but this was Xed by RHO again :( (so much for my optimism) I scrambled to 9 tricks with ruffs and high cards so we got out of the deal only slightly burnt.

 

I also thought of 4 ♥ playing in a Moysian fit. The reason I chose ♣ instead of ♥ is that 1 I am much more likely to find a 5 card fit in the suit instead of in ♥, and I am much more likely to find of find a 3-3 fit in ♥ instead of ♣. At this point I am simply trying to get out of the deal with the least amount of damage.

 

The choice of pass for penalties is one I think some would think long and hard about and I did also. I stated that I have 4 STRICT rules about passing low level take out doubles which are:

 

1: I have good reason to believe that we have a majority of the high card points; CHECK

2: I have good reason to believe that the hand is a misfit deal; CHECK

3a: Rule of 12: 12 minus the number of tricks declarer will need to take is the number of trumps I need in my hand (ie. 12 - 8 (for 2 spade contract) = 4) CHECK

3b: Rule of 10: 10 minus the number of tricks declarer will need to take is the number of trump tricks I need in my hand (ie. 10 - 8 (for 2 spade contract) = 2

 

the last point is the stickler I also adjust the total by 1, if I am in front of declarer meaning I need 5 length and 3 trump tricks in a spade contract. This is to account for trump endplays, elopement trump plays and the fact that partner might lead a trump in these auctions and I need to account for this.

 

 

Thank you again to all who replied, it seems we were predestined for a negative board on this hand but sometimes you have to try to get out of these with the least amount of pain as possible, knowing that other pairs will face the same decisions.

 

 

Regards T

[Cyberyeti]

Can you give us the whole hand so we can look at it and see how 2♠x fares and whether we'd have done anything different on the other hands.