open 1 NT?????????

[msjennifer]

I am the OP - I did open this hand 1NT. My partner, with a "balanced" hand and no 4 card major, and 10 HCP, said 3 NT.

 

Opps promptly took 5 spades right off the top. Partner had 4 clubs and the contract actually makes at 5 clubs.

 

 

Looking at the other results in the room - only about 1/3 of the people wound up in 3NT. The rest played various number of clubs.

 

I agree that one bad experience should not dictate how to play or open a hand. However, I was mystified that so many people wound up in clubs. Some people in the room do play a weak NT - but others do not and they still wound up in clubs. So -

 

This is why I asked the question. There were several players in the room that I would consider very good players - with a few thousand points - so since I am far weaker and far less experienced - I thought perhaps my open was incorrect.

 

Perhaps just bad luck. We were both weak and short in the majors and with a 1NT, 3NT bid a major lead is likely.

SIR,Well ! As per your experience,I would only humbly and politely say,"you had the cake but unfortunately the rats got it".You also say that only 1/3 of the field played in NT and some strong well known ones played in a club contract.Sir,its upto you to decide if its right to open the hand 1C/D OR the fantastic/ disastrous 1NT.Thanks a lot for the results.

[pes_6]

Simple 1nt with 5m-4m-2-2 and 15-17. That isn't important postion of vulnerability in this case for me.

[johnu]

Your fear that we may miss a game when responder has 10/11 is totally unfounded as is is your fear of him having 7/8 HCP if you are kind enough to go through the pages mentioned already.

 

Either you have the worst memory of any bridge player alive, or are the luckiest player in the world.

[Stephen Tu]

Strange indeed that a Jx which is neither a stopper for NT nor has a trick winning capacity(except in a spade contract perhaps)

 

I think you are underrating Jx. It turns Qxx into a full stopper instead of a 0.25 stopper. It turns Atx or KTx into double stopper reasonably often when the opps lead the suit. If partner has KT9x or Qt9x now you can get 2 tricks in the suit rather than probably 1 at best if you only had xx. It's not worth anything opposite nothing, but it has some potential. That's why we assign it a point, it's worth some smallish fraction of a trick on average.

 

Problems of opening 1c then rebidding 1nt: Basically it's just a slight underbid.

 

Problems of opening 1c then rebidding 2c: Partner, unless you are playing a 2H NF style and has hearts, needs a strongish game invitational+ hand to move over 2c, unless he has 6+ in his major. So with weaker hands will often pass with singleton or even void club, which could be a pretty stupid contract compared to 1nt. Even if you land in a 5-2, in general if partner has a 5cd major you'd rather play the major than clubs, because:

• general principle of playing in weaker hands trump suit tends to better.
• majors score more points per tricks than minor

If you do happen to have a 5-3 or better club fit, likely opps have a major fit, and you have made it easier for them to overcall at the 1 level rather than the 2. 1nt might buy it, sometimes 1nt/2m make your way but 2M makes their way, you are better off declaring 1nt.

 

Problems of opening 1d then rebidding 2c: I don't see how one can not have this be ambiguous length. Wouldn't you do the same with 5/6d 4C? So partner doesn't know you have 5 clubs or 5 diamonds. Reasonably often partner will preference to 2d, play a 4-2 fit, again could be stupid compared to 1nt. Or a 4-3.

 

 

Advantages of opening 1nt:

• strength more clearly defined on first bid; if next person is preempting over your 1m instead partner is better placed knowing you have 15 instead of maybe only 11.
• preempts opponent from finding their major fit
• Allows you to find 5-2 major fits which will score better on average than playing a minor
• if you can score 120 in 1nt, this crushes 90/110 in the minor MP wise.

Disadvantages:

• occasionally the minor partial actually is better
• sometimes the opponents will run some unstopped suit on you.

The vast majority of expert strong NT players have found that opening 1nt on these kind of slightly offshape hands simply wins more than it loses in the long run. So we do it, and shrug off the occasional losses. If it was clearly losing practice on net good players would probably figure it out, and there'd be more articles on how boards were won *not* opening 1nt slightly off classical shape. Having all suits fully stopped also went out the window many decades ago.

No bid is going to work 100% of the time.

 

[iplaybridg]

I have read most replies, and understand their position. I believe that I would not count the Jack of spades, and therefore open a club. Maybe I'd open 1 NT if I were not vulnerable, definitely would not open 1NT if I was vulnerable. There are enough options to describe your hand with subsequent bids. I tend to lower normal pt values if that honor doesn't stand on it's own. i.e.Q doubleton, I might give 1 pt, j xx, no count until I know my partner has that suit covered.

[msjennifer]

Either you have the worst memory of any bridge player alive, or are the luckiest player in the world.

SIR thanks a lot for your VERY KIND comments on my memory.Either you have no time or perhaps patience or perhaps it is below your dignity to go through the 1D opening in the mentioned book.As your other statement that I am the luckiest player in the world ,well I, personally do not understand the basis on which you make this VERY KIND AND APPRECIATIVE REMARK.Thanks for that too.The LUCKIEST ONE accordingly must be SILLAFU (Benito Garozzo) who must be also having the worst memory as he is only 91years old and also one of the authors SUPER PRECISION and also won the Bermuda Bowl 13 successive times, retired and then on challenge returned to play with the late CC WEI"S precision system to win the same for three consecutive times.I ,being not one of any good merit( as per your very kind remark on those who would open the given hand 1D) shall continue to stick to the under merited SILLAFU. and his so imagined useless SUPER PRECISION system.AFTER ALL EVERYONE IS AT LIBERTY TO USE WHATEVER IS GOOD IN ONES OPINION.I politely point it out that and please note that I have not at all ridiculed the 1NTbid chosen by others.I have my book and you have yours.I have my beliefs and you have yours.Let us go on commenting without RIDICULING anyone else for holding adverse views.And that is how the game has to go on.THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR VERY KIND COMMENTS.

[msjennifer]

I have read most replies, and understand their position. I believe that I would not count the Jack of spades, and therefore open a club. Maybe I'd open 1 NT if I were not vulnerable, definitely would not open 1NT if I was vulnerable. There are enough options to describe your hand with subsequent bids. I tend to lower normal pt values if that honor doesn't stand on it's own. i.e.Q doubleton, I might give 1 pt, j xx, no count until I know my partner has that suit covered.

Sir,thats the SPIRIT. I very much liked the position you take as most of the time ,as per my experience .it is the one which works on the table.And it has worked as the results show for 66'67% of the field .(which is where we like to finish.)

[evileyes]

1N is better, and I don't like make a reverse bid with this hand.

[msjennifer]

I think you are underrating Jx. It turns Qxx into a full stopper instead of a 0.25 stopper. It turns Atx or KTx into double stopper reasonably often when the opps lead the suit. If partner has KT9x or Qt9x now you can get 2 tricks in the suit rather than probably 1 at best if you only had xx. It's not worth anything opposite nothing, but it has some potential. That's why we assign it a point, it's worth some smallish fraction of a trick on average.

 

Problems of opening 1c then rebidding 1nt: Basically it's just a slight underbid.

 

Problems of opening 1c then rebidding 2c: Partner, unless you are playing a 2H NF style and has hearts, needs a strongish game invitational+ hand to move over 2c, unless he has 6+ in his major. So with weaker hands will often pass with singleton or even void club, which could be a pretty stupid contract compared to 1nt. Even if you land in a 5-2, in general if partner has a 5cd major you'd rather play the major than clubs, because:

• general principle of playing in weaker hands trump suit tends to better.
• majors score more points per tricks than minor

If you do happen to have a 5-3 or better club fit, likely opps have a major fit, and you have made it easier for them to overcall at the 1 level rather than the 2. 1nt might buy it, sometimes 1nt/2m make your way but 2M makes their way, you are better off declaring 1nt.

 

Problems of opening 1d then rebidding 2c: I don't see how one can not have this be ambiguous length. Wouldn't you do the same with 5/6d 4C? So partner doesn't know you have 5 clubs or 5 diamonds. Reasonably often partner will preference to 2d, play a 4-2 fit, again could be stupid compared to 1nt. Or a 4-3.

 

 

Advantages of opening 1nt:

• strength more clearly defined on first bid; if next person is preempting over your 1m instead partner is better placed knowing you have 15 instead of maybe only 11.
• preempts opponent from finding their major fit
• Allows you to find 5-2 major fits which will score better on average than playing a minor
• if you can score 120 in 1nt, this crushes 90/110 in the minor MP wise.

Disadvantages:

• occasionally the minor partial actually is better
• sometimes the opponents will run some unstopped suit on you.

The vast majority of expert strong NT players have found that opening 1nt on these kind of slightly offshape hands simply wins more than it loses in the long run. So we do it, and shrug off the occasional losses. If it was clearly losing practice on net good players would probably figure it out, and there'd be more articles on how boards were won *not* opening 1nt slightly off classical shape. Having all suits fully stopped also went out the window many decades ago.

No bid is going to work 100% of the time.

 

Sir,thanks a lot for your excellent argument for opening this hand 1NT.

[phoenixmj]

You didn't say how a lot of other pairs got to clubs. If they play a 12-14 NT, then I suppose they opened 1C and the opponents overcalled in spades. If they play Precision with a NT range under 15, then they would open 1D and get a 1S overcall.

 

If they play a strong NT, perhaps some opponents overcalled 2S over 1NT?

 

I just can't imagine opening that hand anything except 1NT, and I would say the same if the Jx of spades were xx with a J elsewhere.

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

I have no idea how they got to clubs. Of course we did not. Now there were several Canadians there that i know to play weak NT. So they would bid it differently. I do not play precision and i dont know if that would have gotten them there. I just looked at the hand and result when i got home. I expected a fairly flat board but only 1/3 of the wound up in NT so it was a bad board.

 

I posed this question wondering if i was wrong opening it 1nt. I have concluded the bid was tight and we just had bad luck.

 

Thanks for all of the comments.

 

Cheers

[cleveritis]

It depends on the structure of the hand. A 2c rebid on J9xxx is insane - or Axxxx - partner will pass some 5 card majors that play much better... however, if you have xx, Jx, AJxx,AKtxx - then 1c then 2c is fine...