The brutality of IMPs

[thepossum]

Hi all

 

This is the result of an unfortunate distraction on hand 7 of an IMPs tourney. Going along very nicely, hand 7 had a double major with a possible slam exploration in one. Just assessing key cards in Spades and Hearts, distracted momentarily, bid 4 NT, realise the agreed suit is the other one, go down one and lose 12 IMPs on a flat hand

 

regards P

 

http://www.duncanlowes.com/images/Untitled.png

[TylerE]

Not really sure if there is a point to this post?

[thepossum]

Not really sure if there is a point to your reply :)

[mikestar13]

The point that this error costs more in imps than 4♥= when everyone else is 4♥+1, while if the game were matchpoints, both errors are a bottom board. If I understand OP correctly. That's the point of imps, isn't it?

[thepossum]

No that isn't really the point of my post at all (despite being related) although the penalty of a small error is much worse and terminal than MPs although they can be huge in MPs too. This is the beginners forum. What is it that the two forms of scoring test? Note my above example was 5-1 scores -12 compared to 4 which is very brutal, esesically when caused by dstraction rather than knowledge of the game, systems and ability to play the cards

 

That would be a good discussion point :)

 

And my example above was not related to bridge ability per sé but other aspects of the game - other than technical knowledge and skill. I'm also interested in its implications for the field of computer bridge and robot design and training but thats another matter. The different scoring methods measure very different things. They each have different types of error and statistical error. Much design and analysis is based on the number of tricks rather than the scoring method although some take account of scoring method. But I wonder how much consideration there is of different error sources.

 

But as I say my main point was the brutality of the IMPs form and what it really tests when a small error leading to a misbid and 5-1 scores so much worse than 4 when the player knew that 4 was the correct contract and it was so easy every player made the excat same number of tricks :)

 

But I think really I was just trying to show the amount of concentration required at every step of (bidding) in IMPs and maybe (play) in MPs and how hard it is on the brain

[Vampyr]

I personally think that the most brutal form of scoring is also my favourite one — Swiss Pairs (MP converted to VP).

[hrothgar]

 

But as I say my main point was the brutality of the IMPs form and what it really tests when a small error leading to a misbid and 5-1 scores so much worse than 4 when the player knew that 4 was the correct contract and it was so easy every player made the excat same number of tricks :)

 

 

If you don't like IMPS scoring, perhaps you should simply play MP

[thepossum]

If you don't like IMPS scoring, perhaps you should simply play MP

 

Its not a matter of liking or disliking it

 

I guess after 8 months I should know that almost everyone responding to my threads misunderstands/misrepresents the point I'm trying to make - either genuinely or just to have a go

 

But its ok. I'm used to it now so I dont get upset anymore :)

 

Do you know how many perfectly genuine threads I have put up on this site that have been deliberately targetted and undermined by certain individuals and repeat offenders. It feels like a personal attack on me by those individuals

 

From my scores to date I am a better than average player on this site. I occasionally do well in tourneys. I am highly experienced. And yet from day 1 at the tables and the forum to today I am under constant and unpleasant attack. There is a cultural problem here and at the tables and a total lack of respect displayed on the forums and the tables.

 

I have kibitzed so called top players and observed behaviour from kibitzers and players that is totally disreputable to the game of bridge. There is a serious issue here

 

regards P

[Vampyr]

Its not a matter of liking or disliking it

 

I guess after 8 months I should know that almost everyone responding to my threads misunderstands/misrepresents the point I'm trying to make - either genuinely or just to have a go

 

But its ok. I'm used to it now so I dont get upset anymore :)

 

Do you know how many perfectly genuine threads I have put up on this site that have been deliberately targetted and undermined by certain individuals and repeat offenders. It feels like a personal attack on me by those individuals

 

From my scores to date I am a better than average player on this site. I occasionally do well in tourneys. I am highly experienced. And yet from day 1 at the tables and the forum to today I am under constant and unpleasant attack. There is a cultural problem here and at the tables and a total lack of respect displayed on the forums and the tables.

 

I have kibitzed so called top players and observed behaviour from kibitzers and players that is totally disreputable to the game of bridge. There is a serious issue here

 

regards P

 

By the way, are you talking about IMP pairs? Most people think that playing IMPs without teammates at the other table to protect you is dreadful. It is not a particularly valid form of scoring, so in answer to the question “what does this form of scoring test” the answer is nothing.

[TylerE]

By the way, are you talking about IMP pairs? Most people think that playing IMPs without teammates at the other table to protect you is dreadful. It is not a particularly valid form of scoring, so in answer to the question “what does this form of scoring test” the answer is nothing.

 

Not quite sure why you'd say that. In many ways it's a more valid form of scoring than MP. It rewards bidding and making games and slams, and beating contracts on defense. Sort of the point of the exercise, idinit?

[Stephen Tu]

Not quite sure why you'd say that. In many ways it's a more valid form of scoring than MP. It rewards bidding and making games and slams, and beating contracts on defense. Sort of the point of the exercise, idinit?

MP also rewards accurate bidding, and every trick is crucial.

The problem with IMPs is that certain boards where a large swing is available are much, much more important than other boards. It's been described as randomly every x boards a bell is rung, and this board is worth 5x,10x the other boards. In an IMP pair game, it is rather crucial that you play these boards against a poor pair who screws them up. No amount of pounding poor pairs on other boards where only 1 imp at most you can win can really make up for those swing boards. At MP, you have way more opportunities, since just a simple overtrick on one board can even you out vs the previous board where you got a bottom because the only pair in the field capable of bidding and making a slam handed you a bottom.

 

In a team match, there is the same problem that certain boards are worth much more than others, so that one can easily lose a 26 imp swing on a 50% slam (win 13 or lose 13 based on some K onside), that one team bids but the other doesn't, which is theoretically an EV neutral spot in the long run. But at least you have your teammates in theory providing field protection in that they can always theoretically copy what your opps did.

 

Basically IMP pairs has the most luck factor by far in duplicate bridge. IMPs has more luck than MP. Pairs has more luck than teams. IMP pairs= most random. MP teams (aka BAM, aka point-a-board, e.g. the Reisinger) = least luck.

 

[gordontd]

Most people think that playing IMPs without teammates at the other table to protect you is dreadful. It is not a particularly valid form of scoring, so in answer to the question “what does this form of scoring test” the answer is nothing.

One person saying something loudly and repeatedly does not equal "most people"! It's funny that the strongest regular duplicate in London over the last 50 years has been IMP pairs.

[Cyberyeti]

One person saying something loudly and repeatedly does not equal "most people"! It's funny that the strongest regular duplicate in London over the last 50 years has been IMP pairs.

 

IMP pairs is my favourite form of pairs, it rewards getting stuff mostly right.

 

consider a traveller with 8x200, 8x650 and you score 620. MPs 50%, IMP pairs you get a decent reward.

[mikestar13]

Question to thepossum: can any method of scoring distinguish between a result due to distraction as opposed to (lack of) knowledge of the game, systems and ability to play the cards? And if so, should it? IMHO, the ability to find the right bid or play in the face of distractions is a legitimate and important bridge skill. And while imps punished this one more brutally, it kinder and gentler to the missing the overtrick scenario. I can't escape wondering if you had been playing matchpoints and been distracted and gotten a bottom from blowing an overtrick, would we be seeing an article about the brutality of matchpoints? Bridge is a brutal game, no matter the scoring, different forms tend to be brutal in different ways, but even then, not always. It has happened that a match has been decided by 1 imp, then suddenly 4♥= vs. 4♥+1 looms large indeed in a imp game.

[pescetom]

The problem with IMPs is that certain boards where a large swing is available are much, much more important than other boards. It's been described as randomly every x boards a bell is rung, and this board is worth 5x,10x the other boards.

That can be seen as a problem or as an attraction. It makes IMPs somewhat like road cycling (where you are either going flat out or sitting comfortably watching the cows go by) whereas MPs are more like road running (where you have to maintain speed from beginning to end). In any case it somewhat invalidates Possum's presumed point, because altought at IMPs a distraction can be more costly it is also less likely to happen at a critical moment. There are plenty of hands where you can make quite silly mistakes without seriously damaging your chances for the tournament, unlike at MPs.

[mikeh]

Its not a matter of liking or disliking it

 

I guess after 8 months I should know that almost everyone responding to my threads misunderstands/misrepresents the point I'm trying to make - either genuinely or just to have a go

 

But its ok. I'm used to it now so I dont get upset anymore :)

 

Do you know how many perfectly genuine threads I have put up on this site that have been deliberately targetted and undermined by certain individuals and repeat offenders. It feels like a personal attack on me by those individuals

 

From my scores to date I am a better than average player on this site. I occasionally do well in tourneys. I am highly experienced. And yet from day 1 at the tables and the forum to today I am under constant and unpleasant attack. There is a cultural problem here and at the tables and a total lack of respect displayed on the forums and the tables.

 

I have kibitzed so called top players and observed behaviour from kibitzers and players that is totally disreputable to the game of bridge. There is a serious issue here

 

regards P

 

 

I am one of those you believe have attacked you personally. It isn't personal at all. I have no idea who you are and, were we to meet, I'd likely be happy to buy you a beer, if you turned out to be as you describe yourself. Unfortunately you have a pattern of seeing all criticism as being a personal attack, which is a very unattractive quality. Maybe you are like that only online.

 

In any event, I think that your perceptions of your own ability and knowledge, and your understanding of who may be a 'top player' is quite different from those of the more experienced players here.

 

I play on BBO only with friends or, back in the day, in practice matches with other international teams. I kibitz, if at all, only world class players (and I don't mean self-proclaimed BBO world class players). However, I used to play more frequently and indeed have formed friendships with several European players by doing so.

 

Thus I think I do know what I am talking about when I say that the standard of play in BBO is extremely weak, on the whole. Back in the day, when practicing with a partner, we'd open a table and post that we wanted 'strong experts'. Once in a while we had one opponent who seemed to know what he or she was doing, but it was rare indeed to get two opps who could play with any degree of competence, even tho we always allowed them to discuss the meanings of bids during the auction (only fair since we had a complex method we knew well).

 

Doing above average on BBO, especially against or in a field with robots, is not evidence of any meaningful ability or skill. You won't like reading this, but the average player on BBO is so profoundly ignorant of the true features of the game that, in a real sense, they are not even playing the same game as experts (real life experts) play.

 

Your comment about the conduct of top players strikes me as strange. I have played in two Bermuda Bowls, several other World Championships, and have encountered numerous top players in lesser events. Almost without exception the demeanour and ethics of the top players has been exemplary.

 

Another issue: in the post you made prior to this one you seemed to think that bidding is the element of IMPs that requires the most concentration and 'maybe' play at mps.

 

That sort of statement reflects a lack of understanding.

 

Imps and mp bridge are related but different games. For example, while I have won a few regional matchpoint events, I consider myself an imp player, and one reason I tend to do better at imps than at mps is that I do not much change my bidding philosophy at mps compared to imps. I do change my declarer and defence style, of course. Since my goal is to do well in imp events, I don't want to develop mp habits that might leak over into my imp game, beyond some of the obvious stated below.

 

Both bidding and play require complete concentration at both forms of scoring, but the factors that influence what one bids and how one plays are very different.

 

At imps:

 

a) stretch to bid vulnerable games. As a rough guideline, if the game is about 40%, bid it. The actual assessment is a bit more involved than that, but that's a good rule of thumb

 

b) don't double the opps into game unless you KNOW they rate to go down at least 2 tricks

 

c) don't be afraid of playing in a minor...don't feel that one has to play notrump. While few can do this, I was once on a team with Mike Passell, and we lost 2 imps when he bid 6D rather than 6N. He explained later that on the auction he could picture that he might need to be able to play for a squeeze that would not be possible in notrump but would be in diamonds. He was right, but unfortunately the hand broke so well that he didn't need the squeeze. He'd have bid 6N at mps, even though 6N was inferior in terms of likelihood of making.

 

d) be a little more disciplined with one's overcalls, since while they won't often double (see point b), when they do, you're going for your life if you have stretched

 

e) use safety plays when declaring. Of course, you have to have studied safety play technique.

 

f) related to (e) don't sweat the overtricks unless there is zero risk to the contract in doing so

 

g) on defence, don't sweat the overtricks. For example, if they are in game and you can see an unlikely lie of the cards that will lead to a set if it exists, but you are far more likely to be giving an overtrick....play for the set.

 

h) be willing to sacrifice more at imps than at mps.

 

 

In mps:

 

a) plus scores are king. Don't bid games or slams where you think the odds are no better than 50-50

 

b) be ready to double, even for a one trick set, especially if they are red. For example, you bid to 2S and the opps bid 3H in a situation where you assess that some pairs will be allowed to play 2S your way, which you think will make. If you think 3S is a good spot, or that 3H will make, by all means pass or bid 3S. But if you feel that 3S may be too much, and that there is some chance of beating 3H, double, especially if they are red: you want that magic 200, which will beat all partials your way, and the dreaded -730, while bad probably isn't matchpointing much worse than -140

 

c) while minor suit slams are somewhat attractive, in that sometimes one needs ruffs or other trump techniques to make the contract, minor suit games are rare creatures: it usually plays to try to play in notrump, whether at game or partscore levels. 8 tricks in 1N outscores 9 in a minor, and so on.

 

d) MP rewards frequency of gain, while IMPs awards size of gain. So be more aggressive in interference, since the occasional disaster will be offset by a greater number of (often) smaller gains

 

e) safety plays in mps are very rare indeed. One should consider them only in very unusual circumstances. For example, if one judges that one has reached a great contract that is unlikely to be bid at many tables, assure the contract if possible. Giving up an overtrick will still probably be worth 75% or better, if one has read the situation correctly

 

f) sweat the overtricks. Indeed, depending on how one thinks one's game is going, and how one assesses the chances for an overtrick it is not the least uncommon to risk a contract to seek an overtrick.

 

g) on defence really, really sweat the overtrick. Make more passive leads compared to imps. If there is an unlikely lie that will allow one to set their contract, at the risk of an overtrick, make the aggressive play only if you think that you're getting a really bad board already

 

h) sacrifices are low percentage actions at mps, unless very clear. Unless one is playing in the Blue Ribbon Pairs, or equivalent, you're probably better off, unless it is clear, to hope to get a set (which, in the typical mp field can often happen, particularly in a jammed auction) than to save. This is even more so when one has pushed them into a contract. Going for 800 against their 980 is not going to do you much good if the field in 480 their way. Meanwhile, +50 will be a top.

 

There is more, of course.

 

For example, at mps every hand, and every overtrick or undertrick may be critical, while at imps not so much. Say 1N 3N and there are 10 top tricks and a chance for an overtrick. While good players will focus on the overtrick even at imps (we've all won or lost events by 1 imp or 1VP), declarer usually won't agonize over it as he would at mps.

 

As for your initial point about distractions, while I suspect you disagree, concentration is at the heart of the game. If you actually did ever get to play against real experts, in a match or event of consequence, you'd notice that all of them are intensely focused.

 

One reason that, as a rule, the quality of bridge in the late stages of a major event is not as good as it was midway through the event is that some players get tired, and they lose the ability to maintain focus. That ability is at least as important as the ability to pull of a trump squeeze or a squeeze without the count: focus affects everything, advanced technique is rarely needed.

 

Anyway, I hope you will take this post as it was intended: not an attack on you but an effort to help you (and maybe other non-experts who read this) get some insight into some of the aspects of the game that can make it so enjoyable to play.

[apollo1201]

(...)

Just wow and all my respect!

[rmnka447]

mikeh's gives a terrific analysis of IMPs vs. MPs.

 

Just a couple comments.

 

At IMPS, games and slam hands can create some big swings, so it's easy to underestimate the value of part score hands. But learning to compete for part score hands to the extent you can is an important part of playing winning IMPs. Winning a part score swing generally nets about 5-7 IMPs. So a couple winning part score swings can offset a vulnerable game swing. The trick is to compete but avoid big sets your way or pushing the opponents into games or slams which make they would otherwise not have bid.

 

mikeh commented on the level of play at a tournament dropping as the tournament progresses. That's certainly true. The grind of the intense concentration required does take a toll. That's why in team events, you see the top teams play as 6 person teams. Sitting out a half session occasionally in a KO can make a big difference.

 

IMPs place a premium on playing really good solid bridge throughout by bidding the games and slams you should and defending well. If you can do that, you'll generally be in the hunt for an overall versus average competition. But certainly losing the plot on game or slam hands can be a bigger problem than at MPs. But especially in team IMP events, skill, judgment and consistency of play usually win out.

 

MPs is more forgiving because you can have a few hiccups and survive. But there is a higher intensity at MPs because dropping tricks in declarer play or defense can be very costly no matter what the contract. But sometimes at MPS, you can do all the "right" things yet not score well because the cards just don't sit right. And sometimes, it makes a big difference who you play particular hands against. Then some days, how well you play might not matter much as the opponents seem determined to throw you tops on boards all day. So while skill, judgment, and consistency of play tend to predict success and good finishes, there is a modicum of luck involved because of the vaguery of the hands and the field.

[Vampyr]

One person saying something loudly and repeatedly does not equal "most people"! It's funny that the strongest regular duplicate in London over the last 50 years has been IMP pairs.

 

Well, Friday is a good night to go out, and people don’t mind the randomness; they(we?) are all getting pissed anyway. I would respect it more if it didn’t have an arrow-switch. It is patently obvious that an IMP-pairs must be a two-winner game.

[Cyberyeti]

Well, Friday is a good night to go out, and people don’t mind the randomness; they(we?) are all getting pissed anyway. I would respect it more if it didn’t have an arrow-switch. It is patently obvious that an IMP-pairs must be a two-winner game.

 

Nope, look at how the ranked masters is run with pairs switching directions every so often to get the right comparisons

[shayde]

Just wow and all my respect!

 

I agree! Wonderful explanation about the thought process going on between the two systems. Thanks, mikeh!

[Lovera]

This topic is very interesting and full of various technical informations. I only wonder if it is right this collocation in the "Novice and Beginner Forum" for which it may be difficult to understand given the many aspects to be taken into consideration.(Lovera)

[thepossum]

I am one of those you believe have attacked you personally. It isn't personal at all. I have no idea who you are and, were we to meet, I'd likely be happy to buy you a beer, if you turned out to be as you describe yourself. Unfortunately you have a pattern of seeing all criticism as being a personal attack, which is a very unattractive quality. Maybe you are like that only online.

 

.......

 

Says he is not one of the people to have attacked me personally (which you werent, except on a couple of occasions) and continues with a multi-sentence, multi paragraph, personal attack, insults and abuse, totaly uncalled from the so-called self-proclaimed top player you are. Ive spent my life working with the top people in many fields. Generally the better people are at what they do, the less they need to be rude and abusive, since they develop humility and understand their limitations - not always true I understand - some still tend to have an unnecessary insecurity and attack and bully their subordinates

 

I appreciate your expertise/knowledge on IMPs/MPs but dont have much respect for your behaviour towards me personally on occasions or some of the other unnecessarily rude and abusive players on this site.

 

It seems to me like a totally unnecesary attack. I could waste a lot of my valuable time and address each individual part of your attack word by word, sentence by sentence but to be honest I'm fed up with it. All I can assume is that you are one of those so immersed in your little subculture of arroagance, insults, rudeness that you dont even know when you are doing it

 

I'm putting all previous interactions down to a cultural misunderstanding. I now realise that you and many others never learned anything other than rudeness, insults and arrogance. You seem to think that is what passes for constructive criticism. However I understand it now. If you are so immersed in it you will never be aware of doing it, nor will those who are so insecure they feel they have to grovel at a self-professed experts feet.

 

But thanks for the comments on IMPs/MPs and all your comments and knowledge of bridge on the forums. They would be worthy of respect if they didnt come after such an unnecessarily incorrect rude and personal attack. May I add you are also totally ignorant about me, my bridge level, my knowledge and experience

 

I never attacked you. I never attack anyone except in self-defence and sadly, despite me using an alias, I am ethically obliged to point out when I have been misrepresented in any way in public.

 

But I do agree with you about the level of play on BBO on average. otherwise I would not not do nearly as well as I do (despite me playiing an alien US style convention - I'm most comfortable with basic Acol -, and competing against people who like to openly - they brag about it - cheat the dumb bots and flout the rules of Bridge; and also lie about their expertise - bridge base rankings are meaningless and seemingly the site/business esists largely to give ordinary ACBL players an easy way of buying cheap and easy masterpoints - BBO points mean nothing). I also agree that Robot bridge is no test of true Bridge ability, despite many who think it is. Most of the tournaments are best hand - that isnt even bridge. You have tooltips explaining bids - that isnt bridge. If BBO players were as good as they claim (on average) how is it possible for me to win ACBL duplicate tourneys without cheating the bots. I agree robot bridge is no real test of bridge ability. Nothing substitutes for the requirements of face to face club/tournament bridge - all the skill, memory, knowledge, psychology, stress, pressure etc is lost.

 

Your worst misrepresentation of me was my lack of knowledge and what constitutes a top player. I started learning when I was in my teens over 40 years ago from a very good player and spent a fair bit of my youth learning how to play from watching and reading people such as Bob Hamman and Zia Mahmood. Maybe you have heard of them. I think I know what a top player is. I havent heard of you despite the way you brag about being in the Bermuda Bowl (did you win it?) and kibitizng a few world class players. Also, what upset me most in the early days on this forum (less so recently) is the way "good", "expert" or "top" players insult and abused people on the noivce and beginner forum of all players. You were one the offenders in that Mike which is why I was upset with you in the first place. It was like Serena Williams going to a local club childrens tennis tournament and telling the children how useless they are, and shouting at them from the side of the court. Its rather childish Mike whoever you are

 

Finally, and this doesnt apply to you since I have never sat at your table in Bridge, almost every time I have tried to host a table, play at a table, or kibitz a table on BBO I have observed or been subject to incredible rudeness and ignorance by people who probably arent very good. Most of them are so ignorant they dont even allow you time to discuss conventions with your partner when you sit down, to ask the meaning of bids, to announce and alert bids. Most of them dont even know the rules, values or ethics of bridge, let alone have the right to abuse and insult someone who does. There are even occasional threads on the more advanced forums from so-called "experts" about how to cheat at Bridge and get around the rules. There is a total culture of rudeness, and it seems to have been encouraged and/or condoned by senior plays such that it is now the norm and seems accepted. It is disgusting having players insult attack and abuse players at a table. I'm not talking aboout tournaments - these are meaningless casual games in the BBO club. Normal common decency and behaviour or human beings is not to be rude, obnixous and insutling to strangers. If you want a top game play people you know but dont insult people who come to a site to play a friendly game and get abused. OK. Ive faced that disgusting behaviour and rudeness in clubs face to face and more so here. It is obnoxious and unnecesary. The whole place and the whole game seems to have been taken over by a poker- style mentality. Poker is a different game. Sadly many playing bridge here dont seem to realise that. I'm quite an anarchist and libertarian myself but even under anarchy the whole point of a game is that it has rules. If people cheat at a game then their success is meaningless and everyone knows that. That goes for academia, bridge, business everything - although increase in anything goes, cheating and reduction in overall quality is prevalent in all parts of the world. Those who win by cheating can sit and think they were successful but only in their heads (which for some is enough I guess). Noboby else respects them, except maybe other cheats.

 

I would be interested tho know if the ACBL/NABC/BBO have done anything to address the widespread cheating that polluted the last NABC Robot tournaments

 

But thanks again for all your comments on IMPs/MPs and all your comments and knowledge and expertise of bridge on the forums. That is certainly worthy of respect. I never denied you that despite having to put up with your rudeness.

 

Cheers

P

[hrothgar]

 

 

I would be interested tho know if the ACBL/NABC/BBO have done anything to address the widespread cheating that polluted the last NABC Robot tournaments

 

 

I am not aware of any cheating that took place in the NABC Robot tournament.

 

I would be interested in knowing what you are referring to...

[apollo1201]

 

(...)

 

 

Seriously? 4 months after?