We all had this monster - who saw the risks

[thepossum]

Hi

 

We all had this hand yesterday

 

I think this is probably the "strongest" hand I ever had (as far as I can remember) and certainly did not see the risks. People often say monster hands are hard to bid and this was no exception really judging by the range of scores. It was definitely a case of bidding "correctly" causing problems

 

regards P

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakqt2haj5dakcak4]133|100[/hv]

[pescetom]

If you also showed us North or the bidding there would be something to discuss :)

[thepossum]

If you also showed us North or the bidding there would be something to discuss :)

 

Not really, suppose you picked it up and were opening the bidding after East passed. What is the strategy. We can discuss later bidding later

[hrothgar]

Not really, suppose you picked it up and were opening the bidding after East passed. What is the strategy. We can discuss later bidding later

 

Open with a strong club, relay out shape, ask for controls...

[thepossum]

Open with a strong club, relay out shape, ask for controls...

 

Not many went for a shape bid which would have been smart :)

 

It wasnt really a case of getting to controls

 

OK

 

here were the main sequences

 

A few lucky souls bid 3NT+1 and got good lead

The smart people went 2C-2D-3NT-P - Makes- - 77%

Others went 2C-2D-3S-P - Makes

A few bid to 4S - some made, some went down

One interesting character passed - not a bad score

Many of us went 2C-2D-4NT-P ("correct" NT point range bidding) - down 1 on correct lead, 39,6%

Quite a few others went for higher variants of NT and S up to 7

[Cyberyeti]

I open 2♣, it's a lot easier if you play strong club, presuming partner bids 2♦ neg, I bid 2♠ (FG for us), I could show it as a balanced 28-29 with 2♥ Kokish style followed by 3N but actually think it's easier not to.

 

You need very little to make a slam here but if partner has the wrong cards, he can have quite a lot and you can't make one, so I'd like to keep it low.

 

Be interested to see the hand opposite

[pescetom]

Not really, suppose you picked it up and were opening the bidding after East passed. What is the strategy. We can discuss later bidding later

 

We would open it systematically as 2♣ 2♦ 2♥ 2♠ 3NT (28-29, possible 5-card Major).

[gszes]

when you first look at this hand do you only see the HCP or do you imagine possible different places to play depending on what p has? If you do the latter you can begin to see the importance of bidding as slowly as possible. Start with 2c p mostly will bid 2d but what if they can bid 2h or 3c (natural and decent suit)? In this case getting to 6 will be simple and seven not too difficult. Over the more normal 2d bid 2s see what happens don't jam your own bidding with a totally unneeded (and wrong because suit is not long enough) 3s bid. Who knows what kind of good things can happen when you give partner a chance to show their hand at lower levels.

[Cyberyeti]

when you first look at this hand do you only see the HCP or do you imagine possible different places to play depending on what p has? If you do the latter you can begin to see the importance of bidding as slowly as possible. Start with 2c p mostly will bid 2d but what if they can bid 2h or 3c (natural and decent suit)? In this case getting to 6 will be simple and seven not too difficult. Over the more normal 2d bid 2s see what happens don't jam your own bidding with a totally unneeded (and wrong because suit is not long enough) 3s bid. Who knows what kind of good things can happen when you give partner a chance to show their hand at lower levels.

 

And this is why we play a 2♠ rebid as game forcing even though it makes opening marginal 2♣ bids more awkward, 5 clubs to the Q and out could easily be enough for a slam, add ♠J and it's likely an excellent grand depending on the club pips.

[Tramticket]

The reasons why these hands with extreme HCPs are never as strong as the HCP total would suggest is (a) they tend to be balanced (the greater the HCPs the greater the likelihood of a balanced shape) and (b) communications is usually a problem, often with no entries to dummy. The key to good bidding decisions is often finding out whether a third or even fourth-round control exists.

 

But don't worry, you will receive 28+ HCPs only once in 35,000 hands!

 

I have previously posted a one in a million likelihood 31-point hand that occurred at our club a few years back. In line with the discussion above, there were only 10 tricks available on most leads, since the hand was completely balanced and there were no entries ...

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sak3hak5dakqjcakt&n=sj652ht42d53c9643]133|200[/hv]

 

Homework for Thepossum:

West leads the Queen of hearts against 6NT. This lead allows you to make this contract. Given this information, how should you play the hand?

[rmnka447]

Open 2 ♣ and rebid 2 ♠ over a waiting 2 ♦. Partner is obliged to render another bid either a feature or second negative.

 

After a 2nd negative 3 ♣, bid 3 NT. Partner can pass or correct as appropriate. In any case, partner could envision your hand as pretty much what it is.

 

3 NT makes any time ♠ J drops tripleton or less. Additional chances may ensue if partner has a useful holding in ♥ such as ♥ 10xx which yields a potential second stopper there.

[shyams]

A few lucky souls bid 3NT+1 and got good lead

The smart people went 2C-2D-3NT-P - Makes- - 77%

Others went 2C-2D-3S-P - Makes

A few bid to 4S - some made, some went down

One interesting character passed - not a bad score

Many of us went 2C-2D-4NT-P ("correct" NT point range bidding) - down 1 on correct lead, 39,6%

Quite a few others went for higher variants of NT and S up to 7

My bidding went 2♣ - 2♦; 2♠ - 3♣; ??

I thought to bid 3NT and revisit if North corrects to 4♠. When North passed 3NT, I score 77%. In hindsight I gave too much importance to the 3♣ explanation and was lucky this time. However, with a human partner I would have bid the same way and my partner would have corrected to 4♠ with a 3-card support and 0-3 HCP.

[thepossum]

Hi

 

Thx for the comments. Here is the full hand. Those who tried slams were somewhat unlucky due to breaks (although points arent there). Diamonds were blocked and other suits were long and positioned opposite to protect squeezes. I'm not an advanced player so don't know how it can be correctly assessed on probabilities. You would think slams are there. I nearly bid 6NT opening bid :)

 

[hv=https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?lin=st||pn|thepossum,~Mwest,~Mnorth,~Meast|md|4SAKQT2HAJ5DAKCAK4,SJ765H64D6CQJT987,S84H987DQ987C6532,S93HKQT32DJT5432C|sv|e|rh||ah|Board%206|mb|P|mb|2C|an|Strong%20two%20club%20--%2019+%20HCP;%2023+%20total%20points;%20forcing%20to%202N|mb|P|mb|2D|an|2D%20bid%20waiting%20--%20forcing%20to%202N|mb|P|mb|4N|an|2-5%20!C;%202-5%20!D;%202-5%20!H;%202-5%20!S;%2028-30%20HCP|mb|P|mb|P|mb|P|pc|CQ|pc|C2|pc|D2|pc|CK|pc|DA|pc|D6|pc|D7|pc|D4|pc|DK|pc|CJ|pc|D8|pc|D5|pc|SA|pc|S7|pc|S4|pc|S9|pc|SK|pc|S6|pc|S8|pc|S3|pc|SQ|pc|S5|pc|C3|pc|D3|pc|ST|pc|SJ|pc|H7|pc|DJ|pc|CT|pc|C5|pc|H2|pc|C4|pc|C9|pc|C6|pc|DT|pc|CA|pc|S2|pc|H4|pc|D9|pc|H3|pc|HA|pc|H6|pc|H8|pc|HT|pc|HJ|pc|C8|pc|H9|pc|HK|pc|HQ|pc|H5|pc|C7|pc|DQ|]600|400[/hv]

[Cyberyeti]

For us this is either 2♣-2♦-2♥(Kokish)-2♠(forced)-3N or 2♣-2♦(neg)-2♠-3♣(2nd neg)-3N

[thepossum]

For us this is either 2♣-2♦-2♥(Kokish)-2♠(forced)-3N or 2♣-2♦(neg)-2♠-3♣(2nd neg)-3N

 

Thx. I havent played with a partner who uses them yet.

 

I dont think GiB plays second negative does it. I certainly didnt know how to bid which is why I went quantitative - which in most circumstances would have been ok. The only thing that stopped 4NT being safe was the spade break and Jxxx

[sfi]

For us this is either 2♣-2♦-2♥(Kokish)-2♠(forced)-3N or 2♣-2♦(neg)-2♠-3♣(2nd neg)-3N

 

Can you not improve this and make 2NT after a Kokish sequence game forcing? That gains you the system you play over 2NT, which must be better than what you play over 3NT. You still haven't shown South's values, but you can make up for it later by simply inviting when partner signs off, or maybe by bidding 4NT instead of 3NT at some point.

[Cyberyeti]

Can you not improve this and make 2NT after a Kokish sequence game forcing? That gains you the system you play over 2NT, which must be better than what you play over 3NT. You still haven't shown South's values, but you can make up for it later by simply inviting when partner signs off, or maybe by bidding 4NT instead of 3NT at some point.

 

We play 2♣-2♦-2N 22-23 so it means you have to force to game with a flat 24 which we don't like, and you can see why bidding on over 3N is bad from this hand.

[thepossum]

Homework for Thepossum:

West leads the Queen of hearts against 6NT. This lead allows you to make this contract. Given this information, how should you play the hand?

 

Let me think about it :) So far I have West with the Jack and maybe long/QJx/QJ9 hearts. You dont lead from doubletons? :)

 

Or W is leading a Queen because all other suits are worse which tells you nothing about hearts :)

 

I dont think I would duck but I'm not confident :)

 

I'd explore a couple of rounds of diamonds, maybe play them all, hope for 4-3 and observe the first discard or if it doesnt break 4-3 observe how it breaks. Play 3 rounds of diamonds?

 

Play for the drop of the Q of Spades and drop of QJ doubleton without 9 hearts and hope :)

 

The longest two suits are spades and clubs so you hope to get an extra winner in those in dummy.

 

The problem is getting the lead to dummy so you cant duck because you need to lose one later when you know the distributions better. Not sure my play is advanced enough

 

Are you sure this is possible :)

[smerriman]

I dont think GiB plays second negative does it.

Yes, it does (though it's very buggy). If you bid 2♠, it correctly bids an artificial 3♣ on this hand.

[Tramticket]

You dont lead from doubletons? :)

 

I dont think I would duck but I'm not confident :)

 

Are you sure this is possible :)

 

No not a doubleton. A five-card suit. And you are right not to duck, West won't continue hearts. But maybe you can force west to play hearts later? ... giving you an entry to dummy?

 

And yes, it is possible:)

[sfi]

We play 2♣-2♦-2N 22-23 so it means you have to force to game with a flat 24 which we don't like, and you can see why bidding on over 3N is bad from this hand.

 

Fair enough. We have made the opposite decision and force to game on those hands. But you're right - the tradeoff needs to be considered.

[thepossum]

No not a doubleton. A five-card suit. And you are right not to duck, West won't continue hearts. But maybe you can force west to play hearts later? ... giving you an entry to dummy?

 

And yes, it is possible:)

 

OK

 

So if W has QJ9xx hearts giving E two hearts

 

Hoping that there are 4-2 breaks in Clubs and/or Spades with honours positioned correctly. Spades is the best bet, having the Jack because QJ clubs out could cause problems

 

I'm struggling a bit but I would play three rounds of diamonds and if that is friendly play 4th round and see what drops

 

You play a single round of each suit

 

I cant think it all through but would play from the top of most of my suits seeing what dropped/discarded from each

 

See which suit E was protecting, assuming W protected Hearts

 

Then at some stage hope to throw the lead to the appropriate hand who is then forced to lead back to dummy

 

Play A hearts on trick 1, squeeze other suits from the top, protecting them all, look for discards, and then later lead last small heart to W or lead small from another suit to East

 

I think you have to hope for some 2-4 breaks, that one or more honours will break and that when you lose the lead it is on the right side :)

 

I cant think of all possible combinations

 

I tend to have a broad strategy, play my longest suits, protect against a run when I throw the lead. I cant always think everything ahead and update as I go so I cant get much further

 

Please put me out of my misery :)

[Tramticket]

Then at some stage hope to throw the lead to the appropriate hand who is then forced to lead back to dummy

 

Yes, this is the general idea. You need West to hold precisely ♠QXX as well as ♥QJXX(X). You start with ten top winners. Win the opening lead and play off all of your minor suit winners, then the two top spades and exit with a spade to West's queen, arriving at:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sha5dct&w=shj97dc&n=sjht4dc&e=shdc]399|300[/hv]

 

West is end-played and forced to lead away from the Jack of hearts, conceding the eleventh trick. But this gives dummy an entry and the ♠J is the twelfth trick.

 

Nige1 or one of the others may be able to name this type of play (stepping stome?), but I think that it is pretty.

[thepossum]

Yes, this is the general idea. You need West to hold precisely ♠QXX as well as ♥QJXX(X). You start with ten top winners. Win the opening lead and play off all of your minor suit winners, then the two top spades and exit with a spade to West's queen, arriving at:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sha5dct&w=shj97dc&n=sjht4dc&e=shdc]399|300[/hv]

 

West is end-played and forced to lead away from the Jack of hearts, conceding the eleventh trick. But this gives dummy an entry and the ♠J is the twelfth trick.

 

Nige1 or one of the others may be able to name this type of play (stepping stome?), but I think that it is pretty.

 

Thankyou! I wasnt 100 miles off in concept but am not at the stage of being able to execute anything like that unless partly by chance at the moment. At least I picked Spades as the right target and guessed the hearts reasonably accurately. I didnt pick the EW part for the spades though :)