euclidz Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Click this link to sign the petition "Ban all ISIS members from returning to UK" Shamima Begum in particular https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/231521 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenG Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Click this link to sign the petition "Ban all ISIS members from returning to UK" Shamima Begum in particular https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/231521I most certainly won't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 I most certainly won't.Me neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 It is completely illegal under international law to ban her return and strip her citizenship (you can't make somebody stateless and she has no other country). Also however much you dislike the fact, her baby is British in law and will have rights. By all means lock her up when she gets here and try her incourt, but she has to be allowed to come back. We don't however have to bust a gut to help her return. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euclidz Posted February 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 I most certainly won't. Thankfully lots of others do not agree . . .. Since I posted this thread the signatures have gone up by 10,000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyams Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Thankfully lots of others do not agree . . .. Since I posted this thread the signatures have gone up by 10,000Any implication of cause and effect? Are you saying "I posted therefore it went up"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euclidz Posted February 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Any implication of cause and effect? Are you saying "I posted therefore it went up"?That's simply silly, the reason it went up by 10,000 was because I sent the same link to my golf club :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterAlan Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 It is completely illegal under international law to ban her return and strip her citizenship (you can't make somebody stateless and she has no other country). Also however much you dislike the fact, her baby is British in law and will have rights.Quite. I choose rule of law over rule of populist petition. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euclidz Posted February 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Quite. I choose rule of law over rule of populist petition. Isn't democracy about the people making/changing the law? Petition now at 300K up 20K in the last couple of hours :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterAlan Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Isn't democracy about the people making/changing the law? Petition now at 300K up 20K in the last couple of hours :)1 Hard cases make bad law. 2 300k signatures = 0.5% of the UK population. We have a representative democracy for good reason. I have no wish to get bogged down in fruitless exchanges with you, so I won't be responding further. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Isn't democracy about the people making/changing the law? Petition now at 300K up 20K in the last couple of hours :) Trying to recall, aren't you living in the country that voted for Brexit? Nice learning curve you got there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Isn't democracy about the people making/changing the law? Yes. This is why I live in a Republic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_U_Card Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 That's simply silly, the reason it went up by 10,000 was because I sent the same link to my golf club :)It's a links course then? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 That's simply silly, the reason it went up by 10,000 was because I sent the same link to my golf club :) Reasonable, probably full of old racist white men, but 10K of them ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DozyDom Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 How about we don't make an exception to our country's fundamental rights of citizenship for a literal teenager. We have far more awful criminals abounding in prisons; we don't deport them. Why so keen to change the law for someone who as far as we know has never killed anyone, when you don't make a fuss about domestic criminals? I'm going to guess at answer to that - it's because you think of her, in your mind, as alien and thus not deserving of rights. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DozyDom Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 But seriously, it's like you think we don't already have laws against terrorism offences. When she comes back she'll face justice for any offences committed; the justice that's dictated by UK law not made up on the spot when the public particularly dislike a suspect.. Get over yourselves and quit the mob justice mentality; let the courts deal with crimes. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted February 17, 2019 Report Share Posted February 17, 2019 Reasonable, probably full of old racist white men, but 10K of them ? That’s not fair. If Begum returns to the UK, it is fairly likely that she will never live here as a free person. However, it must be remembered that prison is where a lot of radicalisation occurs, so she will still be a danger to the community. So it is not unreasonable to not want her to return, even though she must be allowed by law to return. Unless, of course, she was handed over to Syria to face trial there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 17, 2019 Report Share Posted February 17, 2019 That’s not fair. If Begum returns to the UK, it is fairly likely that she will never live here as a free person. However, it must be remembered that prison is where a lot of radicalisation occurs, so she will still be a danger to the community. So it is not unreasonable to not want her to return, even though she must be allowed by law to return. Unless, of course, she was handed over to Syria to face trial there. Which would also be illegal as we don't hand people over to countries where torture and capital punishment are possible (and yes we hand people over to the US, but only after the death penalty is taken off the table) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DozyDom Posted February 17, 2019 Report Share Posted February 17, 2019 That’s not fair. If Begum returns to the UK, it is fairly likely that she will never live here as a free person. However, it must be remembered that prison is where a lot of radicalisation occurs, so she will still be a danger to the community. So it is not unreasonable to not want her to return, even though she must be allowed by law to return. Unless, of course, she was handed over to Syria to face trial there.I'd be curious as to how you came up with the idea that she'll never be free. As far as reports have suggested, she's only committed S11 and S12 offences under the terrorism act 2000. The max sentence for either of those is 10 years, and given that she's a radicalised teenager, it'd be difficult to justify the whole amount. No one is suggesting she's any particular danger to the public, as well. So it's hard to imagine that she could stay in prison past the age of 40 or so. And yes, she poses some risk of radicalising people in a british prison. So do domestic terrorists. Drug dealers and addicts contribute to drugs being a vast problem in prisons. Violent offenders contribute to violence in prisons. And yet we don't hand them over to Syria and stop them from seeing their child for the rest of their lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 Isn't democracy about the people making/changing the law? Representative democracy is about the people selecting smart legislators to do it for them. Direct democracy results in fiascos like Brexit. If "the people" made the laws, the US probably wouldn't have the Civil Rights Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 Representative democracy is about the people selecting smart legislators to do it for them. Direct democracy results in fiascos like Brexit. If "the people" made the laws, the US probably wouldn't have the Civil Rights Bill. If the people made the laws, we probably wouldn't have abolished the death penalty (or would have brought it back) Brexit is more complicated, it needn't have been a fiasco, two pro remain PMs, one who mishandled calling the referendum and one who botched the negociations made it one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 It appears that the home secretary has just removed her citizenship, so she must have another or he's getting taken to court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 Which would also be illegal as we don't hand people over to countries where torture and capital punishment are possible (and yes we hand people over to the US, but only after the death penalty is taken off the table) I don’t think that is the case anymore. In any case, it would be the Kurds who handed her over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 A bit of news I heard this morning, it appears he can remove citizenship if she is eligible for another passport, she doesn't actually have to have it and there are discussions going on with Bangladesh (where she's never been, but I assume her family originates from). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 A bit of news I heard this morning, it appears he can remove citizenship if she is eligible for another passport, she doesn't actually have to have it and there are discussions going on with Bangladesh (where she's never been, but I assume her family originates from). Bad day to be Jewish if you are living in the UK... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.