Interest in Bidding and Play

[Echognome]

[hv=d=n&v=e&n=sjxxhkdjxxckqj10xx&s=skxxh108xxdaqxxca9]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♣ - (2♥) - P - (P)

3♣ - (P) - 3NT - All Pass [/hv]

 

2♥ was alerted as weak.

Do you agree with the bidding?

 

The play was also interesting:

 

T1: 9♥ - K - A - x

T2: Q♥ - x - x - x♦

T3: J♥ - 8 - x♣ - x♠

T4: x♥ - 10 - x♣ - x♠

 

What now?

[inquiry]

1) Kiss EAST for not ducking the heart King or curse him. The trick is did he try to talk you out of a successful diamond hook? If he ducks the first trick, you have no choice but run clubs and rely on the diamond hook. His duck has given you the chance to play a vulnerable stopper squeeze on WEST, force him down the the hypothetical Spade ACE and diamond Kx. Throw him in with the spade ACE and win the las two tricks.

 

For sure WEST has spade ACE (with AQJ long in hearts and spade Ace), preempt to risky to miss game. But EAST might have diamond king. If good player, running hearts from top gives you theoretical chance to play for vulnerable stopper squeeze. So you have to rate the game of EAST. I would go vulnerable stopper, but I would feel a lot better about this if they were not vul. The better the player in the EAST seat, the more thought I would give to simply taking the diamond hook (1H, 2D, 6C).

[Elianna]

I don't really like the bidding. I'm old and conservative, though. But I find South's pass of 2♥ unappealing, as I do North's rebid of 3♣, but I have a bit more sympathy for North's bid (wanting to balance and compete). But if South thinks that he has a heart stopper after the 3♣ bid, he has one before, too. I think that it's hoping too much that partner will find a double, and you may be too upset when partner passes. As I said, though, I'm conservative and not much of a gambler.

 

About the play: It seems almost certain LHO has the ♠A (otherwise RHO bid 2♥ on 11 points). It seems a guess to figure out if he has the diamond king, or spade Q. my guess would be not spade Q, because he wasn't protecting them (I'm assuming the cards he threw were not signals, since you didn't say what they were), but I don't really know an intelligent way to figure out which of those two cards he has, but I bet that others do. :(

[HeartA]

I would try a throw-in if ♠Q appears. But if SQ does not appear, I would finesse ♦.

[bridgeboy]

HeartA's comment prompted a thought:

 

I think it is better to discard a D on the 10 of H instead of a S. So when the Spade Q appear you can lead a small S to the K and claim as long as RHO does not have the Spade Ace.

 

This will help to prevent LHO from discarding deceptively from AQx S and K D.

[Echognome]

Some good points all. I wanted to make a couple of observations.

 

Although my partner's opening bid was a bit on the light side for my taste, but I can live with it. I didn't like my stopper for NT, but know that most of these WJO's are made without a solid suit, so gambling 3NT was gambling partner held one of the top honours. The reason for the initial pass is that in my view 3NT was no guarantee (and in fact is off on proper defense), so why not try to take the plus at teams?

 

As for partner's reopening, I thought he did fairly well. He has shortness so wants to protect, but his hand has just gone down the pan somewhat. His ♥K now seems worthless and his mighty 11 count looks more like an 8 count. I'm sure he was tempted to pass.

 

As per the play, I think Ben had it fairly spot on. Note that if RHO had led a diamond through instead of clearing hearts, you would have had to rely on the diamond finesse. Against a good player, you would have to assume that RHO thinks he has an entry (my RHO later told his partner that he hoped his ♠Q would be an entry!??!). I wasn't playing against top competition so it made it a bit more difficult to read. I think everyone playing for LHO to hold the ♠A is right, for if RHO holds it, then you don't have much chance, because he'd have to hold ♦K as well, and that is making 2♥ even less likely. So assume LHO has ♠A. The question is whether you give RHO ♠Q or ♦K as was suggested earlier. I played off all my clubs and carefully watched the discards. It looked like RHO was protecting spades and LHO diamonds, so it made the squeeze seem fairly obvious. I wasn't sure what type of squeeze it was, although it seems as if it's some sort of strip squeeze. Now I know that I can call it a vulnerable stopper squeeze. :)

[Rebound]

With all due respect, you must often expect partner's openings to be on the light side to pass with an opening hand. Just my opinion mind you.

[inquiry]

I wasn't sure what type of squeeze it was, although it seems as if it's some sort of strip squeeze. Now I know that I can call it a vulnerable stopper squeeze. :lol:

When I finish with the heavy work load I have at work right now (some time in early june), I will return to the squeeze threads I wrote to cover these mulii-loser squeezes. And other squeezes with lack of entry, etc, not that the naming rules I use are universally acceptted (this vulnerable stopper squeeze is also, for instance called a strip-squeeze... that sounds too sexy for my use.... :-)

 

For those of you who may have missed the threads on squeezes, here are some of the links...

 

Introduction to squeeze plays

 

Basic Squeeze Quizes, Place to practice squeeze technique

 

 

Squeezes, part II, See introduction to squeezes first....

 

Squeezes Quizes II: Problem with B, For double, compound, dbl guard, etc

 

Squeezes, Part III. Problems with "L", It is assumed you read first two parts..

Ben

[pclayton]

Don't like the bidding at all.

 

I pass the North hand, but I don't criticize a 3♣ opening.

 

I don't understand South's pass. Although a double doesn't quite fit, I'd still make the call.

 

A 3♣ reopening is rather,...well, bold, but you can't criticize success.

 

3N with a non-stopper? Well, ok.

 

____________________________________________________

 

The defense appears to have slipped by not ducking the 1st heart. But playing 4 rounds of hearts has weakened dummy substantially. I'm toast if RHO has the A♠, so assume LHO has that card. The K♦ can be in either hand.

 

What am I going to pitch out of my hand on the 4 rounds of clubs? After I run all of my clubs, there are three cards remaining. If I keep ♠K, ♦AQ, I can still play for the strip - squeeze. If I throw the K♠, I'm essentially playing for the diamond hook, since now East's possible Q♠ becomes an entry. So, I'll bare the K♠. Does West show signs of strain? The Q♠ discard at Trick 9 would be a huge indicator, but if West is really good, he can bare to: ♠AT, ♦K false carding with the Q.

 

Reading the ending depends a lot on West's skill, not so much East's.

[inquiry]

Don't like the bidding at all.

 

I pass the North hand, but I don't criticize a 3♣ opening.

 

I don't understand South's pass. Although a double doesn't quite fit, I'd still make the call.

 

A 3♣ reopening is rather,...well, bold, but you can't criticize success.

 

3N with a non-stopper? Well, ok.

 

____________________________________________________

 

The defense appears to have slipped by not ducking the 1st heart. But playing 4 rounds of hearts has weakened dummy substantially. I'm toast if RHO has the A♠, so assume LHO has that card. The K♦ can be in either hand.

 

What am I going to pitch out of my hand on the 4 rounds of clubs? After I run all of my clubs, there are three cards remaining. If I keep ♠K, ♦AQ, I can still play for the strip - squeeze. If I throw the K♠, I'm essentially playing for the diamond hook, since now East's possible Q♠ becomes an entry. So, I'll bare the K♠. Does West show signs of strain? The Q♠ discard at Trick 9 would be a huge indicator, but if West is really good, he can bare to: ♠AT, ♦K false carding with the Q.

 

Reading the ending depends a lot on West's skill, not so much East's.

To the contrary, the defense may have BEEN BRILLIANT by not ducking. If they duck the first heart, you have 1♥, 6♣, and one sure ♦. You will have no choice but to take the diamond finessee (after running clubs of course).

 

So if the diamond King is onside, the duck gave you a losing line (the delayed duck, strip squeeze, vulnerable stopper squeeze, whatever you call it). So if EAST has the diamond king, winning the first trick gave you a losing line that didn't exist before. Brilliant? Stupid? The lack of the duck depends on who has the diamond King. If WEST has it, failure to duck was stupid. If East has it, the failure to duck was brilliant. How would you like to go back to the other table and explain how you went down in this contract if the diamond hook wins?

 

Ben

[pclayton]

Don't like the bidding at all.

 

I pass the North hand, but I don't criticize a 3♣ opening.

 

I don't understand South's pass. Although a double doesn't quite fit, I'd still make the call.

 

A 3♣ reopening is rather,...well, bold, but you can't criticize success.

 

3N with a non-stopper? Well, ok.

 

____________________________________________________

 

The defense appears to have slipped by not ducking the 1st heart. But playing 4 rounds of hearts has weakened dummy substantially. I'm toast if RHO has the A♠, so assume LHO has that card. The K♦ can be in either hand.

 

What am I going to pitch out of my hand on the 4 rounds of clubs? After I run all of my clubs, there are three cards remaining. If I keep ♠K, ♦AQ, I can still play for the strip - squeeze. If I throw the K♠, I'm essentially playing for the diamond hook, since now East's possible Q♠ becomes an entry. So, I'll bare the K♠. Does West show signs of strain? The Q♠ discard at Trick 9 would be a huge indicator, but if West is really good, he can bare to: ♠AT, ♦K false carding with the Q.

 

Reading the ending depends a lot on West's skill, not so much East's.

To the contrary, the defense may have BEEN BRILLIANT by not ducking. If they duck the first heart, you have 1♥, 6♣, and one sure ♦. You will have no choice but to take the diamond finessee (after running clubs of course).

 

So if the diamond King is onside, the duck gave you a losing line (the delayed duck, strip squeeze, vulnerable stopper squeeze, whatever you call it). So if EAST has the diamond king, winning the first trick gave you a losing line that didn't exist before. Brilliant? Stupid? The lack of the duck depends on who has the diamond King. If WEST has it, failure to duck was stupid. If East has it, the failure to duck was brilliant. How would you like to go back to the other table and explain how you went down in this contract if the diamond hook wins?

 

Ben

Maybe.

 

If East doesn't have the Q♠, and there's no indication why he needs to, then if my hand holds KQx, Txxx, KQxx, Ax, he has just handed me the contract by taking the 1st heart.

 

If East holds the Q♠, then my presumed holding isn't possible, and I would have more respect for clearing the heart suit and weakening dummy's pointed suits and goading me into the losing strip squeeze. If East is good enough to know to then I'm not playing against anyone from this planet anyway. :rolleyes:

 

By the way, at the other table, my partner's hand sensibly passed in 1st chair and balanced with 3♣ over East's weak 2. My hand cue bid 3♥ and my pard's hand bid the 3N with the stiff K♥. This caused our partners to lead the Q♥ and the contract made easily.

[mike777]

Ya the bidding was just goofy. It seems both these players do not trust the other to bid properly.

[Echognome]

Ya the bidding was just goofy. It seems both these players do not trust the other to bid properly.

Hmm... about the bidding. Supposing you are playing negative doubles (and we were), then what was your call as responder? I think you could poll and get some votes for pass, double, and some number of NT's.

 

I thought I was taking the conservative route by passing and was willing to convert for penalties and take what scraps we can get from 2♥. If partner was too weak to reopen then fine. That's a risk I take.

 

After partner's reopening am I then supposed to pass? I figured I made my bed with my initial pass and now that I knew that partner had genuine clubs, I had to bank on hearts not running.

 

I don't mind if people don't like the bidding. I did ask. I appreciate pclayton's explanations of why at least. Trying to figure out where trust was an issue.

 

If it helps North is still learning the game, so I'm sure he was uncertain of any action he took. If there's any criticism, I'd rather focus it on the South (my) hand.

[mike777]

Agree with your conservative pass. Would bid 3h after 3clubs then pass 3nt or if p bids other, make some slam try in clubs.

 

I too love to open junky hands but would pass that piece of swiss cheese and 3c rebid is .....

 

The only explanation that I could come up with is these partners do not trust each others bidding.

[HeartA]

With a opening hand and after pd's opening, pass for me is completely out of the question. And I don't expect pd to reopen with a minimum opening hand. Besides, with 4♥s heading by 10, it is not good to set a trap pass.

 

Yes, I would dbl.

[mike777]

With a opening hand and after pd's opening, pass for me is completely out of the question.  And I don't expect pd to reopen with a minimum opening hand.  Besides, with 4♥s heading by 10, it is not good to set a trap pass.

 

Yes, I would dbl.

I understand. I think DBL is very reasonable and may bid it also. Agree totally with trap pass comment.

 

The issue for me is this hand is not enough to force to game across from junky opener but it is very very close. Typical problem when responder has 12-13 HCP and we do not have room to invite. If p cannot reopen the opp. may be making 4h :rolleyes:. This means I expect p to reopen very frequently.

[Guest Jlall]

Echognome:

 

1) I like X over 2H. Nothing is perfect with this hand.

2) If you pass you're right, you are going to miss game opposite a weak NT (surely pard wouldn't be able to reopen).

3) If you pass and pard reopens with a X and you sit, this is really dangerous. You have no trump tricks and alot of high cards opposite short hearts. They may have 6 trump tricks and nothing else when you have a slam. Or they may have 6 trump tricks and another trick for down 1 vs your game.

4) That being said, after a reopening X I like a 3H cue. Your pard would bid 3N with his actual hand (even if you have xxx hearts its not like theyre about to bang down the ace).

 

It seems like there is almost no upside to pass, and alot of downside.

[Echognome]

Thanks all. I have been converted by your arguments that double carries the lesser risk in the bidding. At least I got the play right. :P