General query about point ranges and bidding 2/1

[thepossum]

Dear all

 

Since I've been using 2/1 for the last 8 months this is primarily about that system but this applies to many systems. I understand systems like precision try to get around it from my limited understanding. It relates to problems with the very broad range of low level responses (especially 1 over 1 sequences)

 

Consider the following sequence

 

1D-1H-1S

 

This allows opener to have 4+ D and 4+ S with 11+ HCPs, 12-18 points

Responder can have almost anything 4+ hearts with a huge point range from about 6 upwards since the 1 over 1 precludes a game force. The maximum of the 1 H bid would be 5+ H with 16+ points (Soloway?)

 

Therefore there is still a very difficult decision for responder to make with low-midrange hands and a spade fit. The responder with a fit could pass the 1 S not thinking there is enough to proceed or raise to 2S and come up against the bottom of openers range

 

Therefore this sequence allows anything from 1 S to 4 S and onwards or even a 1NT-3NT

 

What is the best way of dealing with this and evaluating the hand.

 

Suppose you have 7-8 hcps,4H 4S, approximately 8 losers. OPener surely can have 12-18 hcps and a weak or strong enough for game hand?

 

P

[helene_t]

Hi Possum,

 

With a spade fit you bid

2♠: 6-9

3♠: 10-11

4♠: 12-14

stronger: FSF and then spades

 

So you use FSF with game forcing hands that need more information to decide on strain, as well as with hands that are too strong to leap to game immediately.

 

This is the common approach in most modern systems with wide-ranging 1-level openings, and is not limited to 2/1.

 

Passing the 1♠ rebid is allowed in most styles, but you would need a quite terrible hand to do so if you have 4-card support. More typically, you will have 5-6(7) points with three spades.

[thepossum]

Hi Helene

 

I agree about the theoretical point ranges and responses which probably work most of the time. I did raise to 2S with my hand which went down 1. I guess we cant always hope to be precise enough to get the right part score all the time but there seems a very big divergence in possible outcomes on that one decision, IMHO

 

regards P

 

PS Another aspect is that these sequences risk bypassing a good heart fit too unless I misunderstand

 

Ive been trying to construct a good example but am struggling however the situation does occur many times in 1 over 1 sequences where you end up in the wrong major or get to the wrong level (too high or low)

[akwoo]

I should add: a 1H response to 1D does NOT preclude a game force. You can respond 1H to 1D on 20 points if you're not too sure about where to go.

 

Here's the thing to understand about bidding: you do NOT have to exchange all your information in the first 2 or 3 bids. You can take 10 bids to exchange the information you need, as long as you're not too high by then.

 

It's true that you don't know much after the bidding sequence 1D-1H-1S. But you're still at the 1 level, so you have plenty of room to find out more information. Surely you're better off in that situation than after an opening bid of 1S, since you've exchanged more information and are at the same level.

[Stephen Tu]

What Helene said.

You shouldn't worry about raising and "coming up with the bottom of partner's range". If you have an 8 cd fit, and can only make 1 spade but not 2, generally either the opponents would have already come in the auction, or they are about to balance against 1S anyway and make their contract. The number of hands where you are about to make 7 only tricks and good opponents are supposed to sell out is too miniscule to worry about. Down 1 in 2S is a par beating score far more often than not.

 

Against really bad opponents who haven't learned to balance, I suppose passing 1s on the weakest hands wins more often than against real opponents, but not enough that you should make a habit of passing 1S unless you stretched for your first response.

 

Opener's hand is limited to a non-jump shift (18-) in theory at this point. Responder's hand is *unlimited*. Responder can have 21 pt hand for all we know. Maybe we can say responder doesn't have 25 since at some point you can just respond 7nt. 1 over 1 does not "preclude a game force". Jump shifts, if played as strong, preclude some hands, but not because of point count. Soloway jump shifts have certain restrictions; they are supposed to be limited to solid suit hands, hands with a huge fit for partner and a good jump shift suit, and strong semi-balanced hands that can bid NT afterwards. So responder can have an extremely strong hand and not jump shift because they have a 2nd possible trump suit that isn't the opening suit, or because their main suit isn't long enough or solid enough, or if they don't have a clear 2nd call, and in general if they feel it's a hand where they want to probe about partner's hand by repeatedly making cheap forcing bids instead of describing their own hand to opener.

[smerriman]

PS Another aspect is that these sequences risk bypassing a good heart fit too unless I misunderstand

1♠ denies a heart fit.

[thepossum]

1♠ denies a heart fit.

Thanks Stephen,

 

 

However , if I respond 1H, 1 over 1 that only shows 4+ hearts (even in 5-card majors). I may have more. Opener would bid 1S with 4 spades and 3 hearts. No?

[Stephen Tu]

 

However , if I respond 1H, 1 over 1 that only shows 4+ hearts (even in 5-card majors). I may have more. Opener would bid 1S with 4 spades and 3 hearts. No?

That is true. If responder has a GF hand, he will be able to find a 5-3 heart fit by using 4th suit forcing (or alternatively XYZ gadget). If responder has less than a GF however, 5-3 heart fits can sometimes be lost depending on methods. Opener can be 4342 or 4351, auction might end in 1d-1h-1s-1nt or 1d-1h-1s-2nt with responder some 2533 or some such and opener not strong enough to bid again. (On latter auction after inv 2nt opener should accept with 3cd hearts on the way to 3nt to cater to 5-3 hearts).

There are ways to find most/all the 5-3 heart fits even when responder is weaker, but they pretty much always involve tradeoffs, improving the contract (by finding 2H) on some subset of hands, but getting to worse contracts on other subsets (playing 2H when 1nt or 2S or 2m was better, or 1nt when 2s is better). These are style issues up to partnership agreements.

 

[thepossum]

Thanks Stephen

[pescetom]

1D-1H-1S

 

This allows opener to have 4+ D and 4+ S with 11+ HCPs, 12-18 points

Responder can have almost anything 4+ hearts with a huge point range from about 6 upwards since the 1 over 1 precludes a game force.

 

 

However , if I respond 1H, 1 over 1 that only shows 4+ hearts (even in 5-card majors). I may have more. Opener would bid 1S with 4 spades and 3 hearts. No?

 

It helps to have a convention to disintricate sequences like 1D-1H-1S or 1D-1H-1NT or 1H-1S-1NT, although I would suggest that genuine beginner/novices play without one both because it isn't essential and because it is better to understand the problem before you fix it.

Intermediates upwards typically play some form of Checkback, which can be relatively simple.

Some more advanced players prefer XYZ which offers a more comprehensive solution.