3NT, 4H, X or P?

[ahydra]

[hv=pc=n&n=st5haq8754d87cj76&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1c(2%2B)1sd2s2n(15-17%20BAL)3s]133|200[/hv]

 

MPs, you're vul and they're not. System is 5cM weak NT, so partner has shown a 15-17(ish) BAL hand with a good stop in spades, no 4-card hearts, and no 5-card suit unless it's a club suit. Opponents however refuse to go quietly. What would you call here?

 

Thanks,

 

ahydra

[P_Marlowe]

X.

 

Did I take another wrong turn?

[eagles123]

I don't understand double we seem to have at best minimum values for our previous call. maybe should bid 4H but I think it's quite undisciplined, would just pass.

[P_Marlowe]

I don't understand double we seem to have at best minimum values for our previous call. maybe should bid 4H but I think it's quite undisciplined, would just pass.

You are playing MP, you have +22/23HCP combined, they dont let you play your partscore, you are likely making 3H,

if you pass, you given them a free ride.

It is even debatable, if you should let it go playing IMPs, playing MP, Pass is no option.

[pescetom]

I'm not thrilled by the first double, but I would probably repeat it now.

[Cyberyeti]

Think about the auction, if partner opened 1♣ (presuming you open 1♦ if 4-4), presumably has 2-3 spades from opps bidding and doesn't have 4 hearts, what shape is he ?

 

Either he has 5 clubs or he's 3334, the danger is that he has something like AK, Kxx, xxx, KQxxx where 4♥ and 3♠ may both make, and it's quite likely one of them does.

 

I'm bidding 4♥, you'd be unlucky to find partner 3235 and if he's 3145 it's on him.

[The_Badger]

I could think for another 15 minutes on this one but don't think I will ever come down on one bid or another. At MPs it easier to X than IMPs, and 4♥ could be the winning call (as suggested by Cyberyeti) but I'm also in the camp that it is an undisciplined call (eagles123).

 

Pass is forcing right? Only joking :)

[P_Marlowe]

In the given situation you regret not playing NFB.

If you would have shown 5+ hears, the X is less risky, the risk of defending 3Px with a 63 fit in heart

is not relevant.

[mikeh]

I'd need to know a few things.

 

In this mp field, how many pairs our direction play weak notrump? If the answer is that most do, then this scenario (to the point of 2N, anyway) is probably common. I suspect, but don't know, that my RHO has a side diamond suit. The alternative, against competent opps, is that partner has a doubleton spade.

 

If most in the field play strong notrump, then it is probable that we'd be getting to play the hand. Say RHO overcalls somehow to show a 2-suiter....will LHO be able to raise to 3S on such an auction? Far less likely than his raising to 2S on our auction.

 

This matters because we need to assess how much risk we are in.

 

I think it fair to say that we'd expect to make 9 tricks in hearts. We may make 10, but I'd bet against it, especially with the spade coming through partner. The notion that he has AK in spades is not impossible but the odds against have to be very high. AQ is more likely, and weaker holdings at least as likely as that. Plus if he is 3=2 in the majors, I'd expect a competent 3S bidder to have shape....5-5 spades and diamonds is entirely consistent with the auction and now hearts may be breaking badly. We can probably handle 4-1 at the 3-level if partner has Kx, but probably not at the 4-level, plus we may be doubled.

 

If I think that most pairs our way will get to play in 2 or 3 hearts, sometimes by partner but usually by our side, after 1N (2something showing spades and maybe another), then I have to bid 4H. No way are we collecting 300 against 3S, and no way is partner EVER pulling this double unless he has stepped out with, say, 6 clubs.

 

Many low-level doubles of a fit-auction are DSIP or action doubles, inviting partner to bid something. Not this auction. There is no way that double implies a 6 card heart suit nor does it ask partner to pull. It is penalty. Now, does this mean that no partnership could choose to define this as DSIP or action? No, but it does mean that the default or standard meaning is that 'it's my lead, partner'.

 

Anyone who, in the absence of an express agreement, treats this double as inviting partner to bid (with normal holdings for the auction) is, imo, guilty of allowing our knowledge of our hand to influence what we think our action means. This is a very common error.

 

Maybe we beat 3S, but +100 is the most we rate to score (and we'd need to double), and that is a terrible mp result if much of the field will be +140.

 

However, if much of the field is likely to face this same problem, I want a plus score, and I am far more likely to get that on defence. Since I expect little difference between +50 and +100, I do not double. It is possible that -140 will outscore a lot of -200s so I am not risking -530.

 

At imps, I pass all the time.

[msjennifer]

Sir I do not agree with the first double unless it is a new convention to show a 3 card support for clubs.Right now I shall have to bid 4 H .Partners 2NT bid is not clear unless discussed earlier.

[ahydra]

Sir I do not agree with the first double unless it is a new convention to show a 3 card support for clubs.Right now I shall have to bid 4 H .Partners 2NT bid is not clear unless discussed earlier.

 

It's a negative double, the hand is not strong enough for 2H. 2NT is well-defined as 15-17 BAL(ish).

 

ahydra

[msjennifer]

It's a negative double, the hand is not strong enough for 2H. 2NT is well-defined as 15-17 BAL(ish).

 

ahydra

 

Sir,we too play negative doubles but not with such a hand holding SIX carder very good heart suit .Partner will never imagine such a hand..We bid a semi forcing 2H which enables partner to make a support double confidently or Pass or bid anything which warrants a bid.,.Our hand is an eight loser hand with the heart suit and certainly warrants a 2H bid as if as is normal the opener holds 8 or normally 7 loser hand with the LTC this hand can produce 9 tricks with hearts as trumps..

[nekthen]

i refuse to answer as first double is just wrong.

2♥ is correct

[maartenxq]

Hi, this is a nasty situation. Any bid I make can lead to a bad score, certainly in a field where most could open 1 nt.

 

Anyhow I pass, reasoning like this: If I would have opened 2 ♥ and partner asked me min or max I would have responded min. So I do not have the values to bid now.

downside is that partner does not know of my 5t and 6th ♥. He knows however that I have some values and that he can lead ♥. If partner doubles I pass.

 

Maarten Baltussen

[mikeh]

i refuse to answer as first double is just wrong.

2♥ is correct

Only if playing negative free bids. Such were popular with some experts a decade or so ago, but are rarely played these days, for what I consider to be sound reasons.

[phoenixmj]

Sir,we too play negative doubles but not with such a hand holding SIX carder very good heart suit .Partner will never imagine such a hand..We bid a semi forcing 2H which enables partner to make a support double confidently or Pass or bid anything which warrants a bid.,.Our hand is an eight loser hand with the heart suit and certainly warrants a 2H bid as if as is normal the opener holds 8 or normally 7 loser hand with the LTC this hand can produce 9 tricks with hearts as trumps..

 

I was thinking that you do not incorporate LTC when making your first response unless you have a fit. The way we play - we may well have doubled also to show the heart suit because we do not have the points to bid at the 2 level.

 

Curious to know what advanced players do. I agree that it is not totally descriptive in this case because the hearts are stronger than partner will imagine.

[PhilG007]

[hv=pc=n&n=st5haq8754d87cj76&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1c(2%2B)1sd2s2n(15-17%20BAL)3s]133|200[/hv]

 

MPs, you're vul and they're not. System is 5cM weak NT, so partner has shown a 15-17(ish) BAL hand with a good stop in spades, no 4-card hearts, and no 5-card suit unless it's a club suit. Opponents however refuse to go quietly. What would you call here?

 

Thanks,

 

ahydra

 

It's a no brainer. The heart suit is your only interest on this hand so you might as well bid game in it :)

[Bad_Wolf]

2N with 15 is not a good idea. This is not a good auction for weak no-trumpers but 2N is best played IMO as 17-19. Yes it's wide but it's better than bidding 2N with 15 or 3N with 19. Also relevant is whether you play support doubles on this auction. Anyway you need to bid 4H now.

[ahydra]

This is a weak NT field (I'll make sure to point that out in future where relevant).

 

Thanks for responses all. Full hand was:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sak7hk63daj3c8532&w=sqj932ht2dkq65ck4&n=st5haq8754d87cj76&e=s864hj9dt942caqt9&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1c(2%2B)1sd2s2n(15-17)3s4hppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Sitting North I tried 4H, aware that it was likely going to be pushy, but feeling that we might not even beat 3S. If I'm going to bid game, perhaps 3NT is better to protect partner's spades. The defence were kind enough to never lead diamonds, but clubs were not kind enough to split, and I collected only 29%. (Quite the range of results. Three pairs somehow managed to make 4H, and one managed to concede -530! mikeh was very correct in predicting there was little difference - 8% - between +50 and +100.)

 

ahydra

[Bad_Wolf]

@phoenixmj Advanced players double. Partner needs to be able to "imagine" 6H simply because this is one of the hand types that starts with a double. Ignore posters suggesting an original 2H bid. The hand is significantly too weak and LTC has nothing to do with anything except poor teaching. (Other good players might mention NFBs - ie negative free bids, but that is another discussion)

[Cyberyeti]

@phoenixmj Advanced players double. Partner needs to be able to "imagine" 6H simply because this is one of the hand types that starts with a double. Ignore posters suggesting an original 2H bid. The hand is significantly too weak and LTC has nothing to do with anything except poor teaching. (Other good players might mention NFBs - ie negative free bids, but that is another discussion)

 

It's not "significantly" too weak in many contexts, many Acol pairs will shade this bid over the overcall, and for those that do it's really quite close to good enough, if Jxx♣ was QJx or Kx(x) it's virtually auto, if it's Qxx, I'm thinking about it, probably not, but Q10x, or Qxx in a 6331 I probably do.

[nekthen]

This is a weak NT field (I'll make sure to point that out in future where relevant).

 

Thanks for responses all. Full hand was:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sak7hk63daj3c8532&w=sqj932ht2dkq65ck4&n=st5haq8754d87cj76&e=s864hj9dt942caqt9&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1c(2%2B)1sd2s2n(15-17)3s4hppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Sitting North I tried 4H, aware that it was likely going to be pushy, but feeling that we might not even beat 3S. If I'm going to bid game, perhaps 3NT is better to protect partner's spades. The defence were kind enough to never lead diamonds, but clubs were not kind enough to split, and I collected only 29%. (Quite the range of results. Three pairs somehow managed to make 4H, and one managed to concede -530! mikeh was very correct in predicting there was little difference - 8% - between +50 and +100.)

 

ahydra

 

As Bad Wolf pointed out 2N on a bare 15 is asking for trouble. Personally, I think Souths hand is so poor that I would open 1N

[P_Marlowe]

This is a weak NT field (I'll make sure to point that out in future where relevant).

 

Thanks for responses all. Full hand was:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sak7hk63daj3c8532&w=sqj932ht2dkq65ck4&n=st5haq8754d87cj76&e=s864hj9dt942caqt9&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1c(2%2B)1sd2s2n(15-17)3s4hppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Sitting North I tried 4H, aware that it was likely going to be pushy, but feeling that we might not even beat 3S. If I'm going to bid game, perhaps 3NT is better to protect partner's spades. The defence were kind enough to never lead diamonds, but clubs were not kind enough to split, and I collected only 29%. (Quite the range of results. Three pairs somehow managed to make 4H, and one managed to concede -530! mikeh was very correct in predicting there was little difference - 8% - between +50 and +100.)

 

ahydra

If you bid game, I believed 4H is better, but this may be wrong thinking.

To make game, you need the hearts, ..., and if you need the hearts, it may

well be, that getting 9 tricks is simpler, than getting 10.

I understand, why mikeh was passing, I surely would not have found it.

 

There is a joke along the lines

#1 bad player do A, because they dont know

#2 better player do B, because they know something

#3 expert do A, because they know, that there are exceptions

 

I am not suprised to find myself the #2 group.

 

PS: mikeh assumes competent oppoenents, ... i am not sure the west hand is a

proof for this assumption, I am struggling to find a reason, why West did bid 3S,

... except: it was succesful.

[nudnikbp]

4H.Partner could hold the heart king along with a decent club suit, so 4H hopefully will be playable, but it may go down 1.

[croquetfan]

negative X was invented to handle those hands where you want to overcall but only have a 4 card suit. If you use it with a 5+ suit, it becomes meaningless. Partner does not know whether to support with 3. So there is no right answer: just guess and take the blame for a the dumb double if you are wrong.