What do you bid?

[Dinarius]

[hv=pc=n&s=shat952dkcakqt642&w=st752hkj64d63cj75&n=skj964hq73dqjt72c&e=saq83h8da9854c983&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=pp1ddp3sp4cp]399|300[/hv]

 

IMPs.

 

1. Do you agree with South's Double?

2. We were playing Michaels, so 2NT would have shown ♥/♣. Do you prefer that? With a major suit fit, ♣ can be used for discards.

3. Do you agree with 3♠ opposite the double?

4. Is 4♣ forcing?

5. Any other comments?

 

5 ♣ or 5 ♥ are cold. I passed 4♣. What should I have bid, if anything?

 

Thanks.

 

D.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 No

#2 Yes, the alternative is 2C

#3 No, ..., I prefer Pass

#4 Yes

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Dinarius]

Thanks for the reply.

 

3. Can one diamond doubled ever be a good result with a near certain vulnerable game on, assuming you can find it. I think that North has to bid.

 

4. I would be interested to to hear other views on whether it’s forcing. I suspect you’re right. So, what do you now bid?

 

Thanks.

 

D.

[ahydra]

Double-then-bid is generally played as F1 (but de facto GF on values after a jump response). I agree North has an unappetizing choice here, 4D sounds like a club cue and 4N would be RKC (I assume), so his best bet is maybe 5C to shut partner up ASAP. Partner's clubs should be pretty good as he bid 4C not 3N.

 

South is entirely to blame for this disaster, what suit did he think North would call? 2NT overcall is a much better description of the hand (it's 0-5-1-7, not 4-3-2-4 nor 3-2-2-6!) and leads easily to a heart game.

 

At this vul I would not pass 1DX, the odds of taking the required 10 tricks to compensate for game our way seem remote. Switch the vul and it's dollar sign time. North is worth about 2.5 spades given the likely wasted club values opposite. (Though be aware some would play the 3S as pre-emptive) Pushing a bit vul at IMPs is entirely forgivable.

 

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

Double-then-bid is generally played as F1 (but de facto GF on values after a jump response). I agree North has an unappetizing choice here, 4D sounds like a club cue and 4N would be RKC (I assume), so his best bet is maybe 5C to shut partner up ASAP. Partner's clubs should be pretty good as he bid 4C not 3N.

 

South is entirely to blame for this disaster, what suit did he think North would call? 2NT overcall is a much better description of the hand (it's 0-5-1-7, not 4-3-2-4 nor 3-2-2-6!) and leads easily to a heart game.

 

At this vul I would not pass 1DX, the odds of taking the required 10 tricks to compensate for game our way seem remote. Switch the vul and it's dollar sign time. North is worth about 2.5 spades given the likely wasted club values opposite. (Though be aware some would play the 3S as pre-emptive) Pushing a bit vul at IMPs is entirely forgivable.

 

ahydra

 

S thought N would bid spades, but not 3 of them, he's OK over 1 or 2.

 

I'd have bid 2N good or bad.

[msjennifer]

Sir,if you are playing the double as general purpose double then I,personally would have bid a waiting 1S looking at the club void and values in diamond suit which In my opinion would be useful in a no trump contract only.I feel that the 3S bid is a rather inconsiderate bid and not correct.The 4C bid by the doubler is 100% forcing.If you are playing 2NT as take out in hearts and clubs then I will prefer that to a TOD.

[Cyberyeti]

Sir,if you are playing the double as general purpose double then I,personally would have bid a waiting 1S looking at the club void and values in diamond suit which In my opinion would be useful in a no trump contract only.I feel that the 3S bid is a rather inconsiderate bid and not correct.The 4C bid by the doubler is 100% forcing.If you are playing 2NT as take out in hearts and clubs then I will prefer that to a TOD.

 

You can't bid only 1♠, partner with many hands that will make 4 comfortably will pass. AQ10x, KJx, x, QJ109x for example, you can risk 2♠ which is probably what I'd do.

[Dinarius]

Totally agree.

 

You must bid the N hand as if S had opened one of the unbid suits.

 

So, if East had passed, what would you respond to one Spade? Probably, four Spades opposite 5 card; three Spades opposite a double, is ok, but four is close too.

 

If 4♣️ is forcing above, then I agree that 5♣️ is probably best to shut up partner.

 

But, I don’t like the initial double. Without Michaels, I bid 2♣️.

 

D.

[gszes]

suppressing a 5 card major (especially with a hand that seems destined to play in a suit) is fraught with danger. Using 2n will at least get the heart suit in play when hearts seems right. Another problem with x is do we really want to give partner a chance to convert to penalty? Just the wrong hand type for x. Assuming I had to bid over x I would take advantage of my passed hand status and bid 2d with the diamonds being so good a ruffing finesse might easily be available through east. I would bid 5c over 4c it is not north's fault south chose to go with x and the heart suit disappeared.

[Dinarius]

Yes, I should have bid 5♣️.

 

If it had failed because of a bad ♣️ break, it would not have been my fault.

 

But, vulnerable at IMPs, 4♣️ was no-man’s land. Pass was the losing option.

 

D.

[shaky44]

What is the thinking behind bidding 5C? If you're sitting at the table for that sequence and you can promise to take 11 tricks with no aces and zero trumps, you're brilliant or peeking at your partner's hand.

 

I'll bid 4H before I bid 5C. If partner doubled 1D without a spade OR heart suit, let him figure it out. I'd even bid 4D or 4S before I bid 5C. In this case, he'll bid 5C (or maybe pass 4H) no matter what I bid. But I'm certainly not bidding 5C.

[nudnikbp]

I'd start with 2C and wouldn't expect to get passed out. Don't like double at all.

[heart76]

Totally agree.

 

You must bid the N hand as if S had opened one of the unbid suits.

 

So, if East had passed, what would you respond to one Spade? Probably, four Spades opposite 5 card; three Spades opposite a double, is ok, but four is close too.

 

If 4♣️ is forcing above, then I agree that 5♣️ is probably best to shut up partner.

 

But, I don’t like the initial double. Without Michaels, I bid 2♣️.

 

D.

 

I've seen this before: X of 1m opening and parter assumes the doubler can play both majors.

If you play unusual NT as either weak or 16-ish or better, than 2NT is better.

But that said, over 1♦ - X you can't jump to 3♠, cause you're wiping away bidding space, unless you have splinter agreements.

Actually, "bid as you were responding to a 1 opening" seems not right. Typ. answers to TOX are:

- a suit at min level = 0+ HCP, 4+ cards (after RHO passes)

- jump in a suit = 8-11 working HCP, 4+ cards

- overbid of opening suit = own opening, any distribution

- NT is also in the picture with 7-9/10 or 10-12 HCP balanced and a stop in the opening suit

 

So your bid is 2♠, not 3.

The reason is that with a long suit and 17/18 points one also goes through the TOX. The 4♣ bid tells you about this situation (except the hearts suit).

The other reason is that your single-jump response is already fully descriptive.

[Tramticket]

I believe that this type of problem arises because players use a takeout double in a very fuzzy undefined way. Let's get back to basics and consider what a takeout double shows - for me, it is one of three types of hand:

- Short in the suit opened with support (3+ cards) for the three unbid suits with about opening strength or greater (depends partly on shape).

- Very strong single-suited hand - for me, this starts at about 18 HCPs.

- Very strong balanced hand - too strong to overcall 1NT - for me, this is 19+ HCPs

 

There are no two-suited hands at all in this definition. [i don't play Equal Level Conversion - but that is certainly not applicable here anyway]. Two-suited hands can be shown through Michaels / Unual NT / Ghestem etc. or they can be shown by bidding one of the suits, then bidding a second suit on the next round (if at a suitable level).

 

Here, I bid 2NT (or whatever your system bid for a heart/club two-suiter is). I prefer a 4NT bid to double. I prefer a 2♣ or 1♥ over-call to double. I even prefer a (strong) 3♣ over-call to double! (well maybe the last one is pushing it a bit).

[pescetom]

1. Do you agree with South's Double?

2. We were playing Michaels, so 2NT would have shown ♥/♣. Do you prefer that? With a major suit fit, ♣ can be used for discards.

3. Do you agree with 3♠ opposite the double?

4. Is 4♣ forcing?

 

Just seen this one.

1. Per niente, I agree with tramticket's comments.

2. Of course.

3. Of course.

4. I'm surprised that so many said yes: I don't think you'll find a book on natural bidding that considers it forcing, although of course you need very good reason to pass.

[kevinwm]

My thoughts:

 

1,2) South is too strong for an UnNT bid. Double (for takeout) is the only appropriate bid.

 

3) I would not have bid 3!s. That jump shows a weak hand to me, length but less than 6 points. I would simply bid 1!s and see how the bidding progresses.

 

4) 4!c is not forcing. Unfortunately your 3!s bid took away bidding room - as South I would be tempted to force game either with a 4!d cuebid, or by jumping to game... but your 3!s bid would indicate no game interest to me (other than if we have a spade fit).

 

5) East's 1!d bid is pretty weak, even for a 3rd seat weak bid. Knowing that (through alert or experience) would cause me to lean towards a game jump as S.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=shat952dkcakqt642&w=st752hkj64d63cj75&n=skj964hq73dqjt72c&e=saq83h8da9854c983&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=pp1ddp3sp4cp]399|300| Dinarius writes " IMPs.

 

1. Do you agree with South's Double?

2. We were playing Michaels, so 2NT would have shown ♥/♣. Do you prefer that? With a major suit fit, ♣ can be used for discards.

3. Do you agree with 3♠ opposite the double?

4. Is 4♣ forcing?

5. Any other comments? 5 ♣ or 5 ♥ are cold. I passed 4♣. What should I have bid, if anything?"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

IMO

1. Over RHO's (1♦) I much prefer 2♣ or 2N (UNT).

2. If you overcall 2N, then you can bid ♣s later to show extra shape.

3. North's 3♠ seems a reasonable response to South's double

4. For most partnerships 4♣ is F1.

5. But it's hard to find a sensible continuation for North.

[/hv]

[Stephen Tu]

1,2) South is too strong for an UnNT bid. Double (for takeout) is the only appropriate bid.

 

I on the other hand think that double is insanity with a void in an unbid major, especially spades. It is just begging for the auction to be at 4s when it gets back to you.

 

There is no logical reason why u2nt should have an upper limit. You get a second chance to show stronger hand if partner only bids at 3 level.

[Cyberyeti]

My thoughts:

 

1,2) South is too strong for an UnNT bid. Double (for takeout) is the only appropriate bid.

 

3) I would not have bid 3!s. That jump shows a weak hand to me, length but less than 6 points. I would simply bid 1!s and see how the bidding progresses.

 

4) 4!c is not forcing. Unfortunately your 3!s bid took away bidding room - as South I would be tempted to force game either with a 4!d cuebid, or by jumping to game... but your 3!s bid would indicate no game interest to me (other than if we have a spade fit).

 

5) East's 1!d bid is pretty weak, even for a 3rd seat weak bid. Knowing that (through alert or experience) would cause me to lean towards a game jump as S.

 

Many people play UNT as either weak or strong (you overcall with intermediate hands) if you do that, 2N is fine, there is no such thing as too strong.

 

The jump to 3♠ is not weak to a lot of people, hence anything bid over it is GF.

[PhilG007]

[hv=pc=n&s=shat952dkcakqt642&w=st752hkj64d63cj75&n=skj964hq73dqjt72c&e=saq83h8da9854c983&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=pp1ddp3sp4cp]399|300[/hv]

 

IMPs.

 

1. Do you agree with South's Double?

2. We were playing Michaels, so 2NT would have shown ♥/♣. Do you prefer that? With a major suit fit, ♣ can be used for discards.

3. Do you agree with 3♠ opposite the double?

4. Is 4♣ forcing?

5. Any other comments?

 

5 ♣ or 5 ♥ are cold. I passed 4♣. What should I have bid, if anything?

 

Thanks.

 

D.

[/quote

 

Firstly I have to say that South should be referred to a good psychiatrist for making a t/o double on that hand. A take out double says that

you can support the unbid suits which is totally false considering South's glaring spade void. A Michaels 2NT would be the perfect bid......but what if you

are not playing Michaels? A simple 1♥ overcall then a jump to 4♣ will accurately describe South's distribution. and it doesn't need an

Einstein to bid 4♥ by North. 4 Clubs is not forcing but highly invitational

[Cyberyeti]

 

Firstly I have to say that South should be referred to a good psychiatrist for making a t/o double on that hand. A take out double says that

you can support the unbid suits which is totally false considering South's glaring spade void. A Michaels 2NT would be the perfect bid......but what if you

are not playing Michaels? A simple 1♥ overcall then a jump to 4♣ will accurately describe South's distribution. and it doesn't need an

Einstein to bid 4♥ by North. 4 Clubs is not forcing but highly invitational

 

T/O double says you can support all unbid suits, OR you have enough strength to deal with whatever partner does.

 

If you think you'll be allowed to jump to 4♣ most of the time, you're in cloud cuckoo land. How much are you going to enjoy 1♦-1♥-5♦-P-P-? unfortunately partner has xxxxxx, Kx, x, Jxxx, hearts are 4-2, clubs 2-0 and 5♦ and 6♣ both make on normal defence.

[Dinarius]

Some fascinating views. Thanks all.

 

A weak or strong 2NT (yes, we were playing!) is the only bid for me. And, as one responder wrote, a further ♣️ bid can show extra shape.

 

Reverse the vulnerability and I pass.

 

D.

[RD350LC]

[hv=pc=n&s=shat952dkcakqt642&w=st752hkj64d63cj75&n=skj964hq73dqjt72c&e=saq83h8da9854c983&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=pp1ddp3sp4cp]399|300[/hv]

 

IMPs.

 

1. Do you agree with South's Double?

2. We were playing Michaels, so 2NT would have shown ♥/♣. Do you prefer that? With a major suit fit, ♣ can be used for discards.

3. Do you agree with 3♠ opposite the double?

4. Is 4♣ forcing?

5. Any other comments?

 

5 ♣ or 5 ♥ are cold. I passed 4♣. What should I have bid, if anything?

 

Thanks.

D.

Others have given their opinions, but here are mine.

1. No, do not agree with the double.

2. Prefer a 2NT bid (showing ♥/♣. More like what the hand is.

3. Given a double, think that 3♠ was excessive. I would have bid 2♠ over the double.

4. I would not consider 4♣ forcing, but I would have bid with the north hand. Likely 4♥-but I consider 3♠ quite excessive.

5. In my view, a double caused a lot of these problems. I would have either bid 2NT or 3 ♣.

[dbl118]

1. I'm fine with the double. The hand is strong you are probably bidding at least game no matter what.

2. If your 2nt agreements are clear enough that you'll be able to show this hand, then that is better.

3. I do not like 3 spades as it takes up way too much bidding room. 2sp seems plenty given the likely wasted diamonds. I'm fine with a diamond cuebid of 2d if that is available too.

4. 4 clubs is absolutely forcing in my mind. It's north's fault for making the auction so high though.

5. I'd probably respond 4d next. I think partner should be able to work out that you don't have club tolerance, and you like your spades. It leaves room for a 4h response if south has that as its second suit.

[miamijd]

First, some general comments, then a comment on what went wrong in your auction:

 

Generally:

 

South's hand is tougher to bid than you might think. X, 2C, 2NT, and 3D are all possibilities. I guess Phil thinks I need a psychiatrist, because I would either bid 3D (if I were playing the right treatment for it here - more below) or (more likely) X.

 

The trouble with 2C is pretty obvious: the hand could get passed out when you have an easy game (or even slam) in clubs or hearts. Sure, someone is likely to have a pile of spades and mention them, but do you really want to take this risk? We need to find a better bid.

 

2NT is better than 2C, but it misstates your hand. 2NT suggests that your clubs and hearts are roughly equal (5/5). They aren't. Suppose partner's hand is:

 

KJxxx

xx

Qxx

xx

 

He'll bid 2H and now what? How in the world do you plan to get to 3NT? You're never going to convince partner that your hearts aren't as good as your clubs (or almost). 2NT isn't awful, but I think we can do a lot better.

 

Depending on how you play it, 3D might be a good bid. Some play that as diamonds, so if that's your treatment, it's out. But others play it the same way as (1M) 3M: a strong hand with a running suit in the other minor and one side Ace, asking for a stop in opener's suit for 3NT (lacking a stop, partner has a variety of bids depending on the strength of his hand). If you use that treatment, 3D isn't a bad call. You will bid 3NT, and partner will pass and hold his breath that you have some spades, too (which you do, so 3NT rolls).

 

And that brings us to X. The only potential downside is that you might pass, but that seems unlikely, because either (A) you have a spade-diamond two-suiter, in which case you'll bid spades, not pass or (B) the opponents have a PILE of spades, in which case responder is likely to make a spade bid at some level over the X. More likley, you bids some level of spades, and now partner bids clubs and then hearts:

 

(1D)

X 2S

3C 3D

3H 3NT

 

And now partner can either pass or else bid 4H (I think with 8 probable tricks, I would just pass 3NT), and you end up in a making game.

 

Your Auction:

 

I think X is fine.

 

3S is NOT fine (at least not if you play sane treatments). 3S ought to show a preemptive hand. You don't have a preempt; you have a good hand opposite a X of 1D. With five spades, you shouldn't pass, tempting as that might be.

 

"Standard expert" treatment here would be that minimum hands bid 1S; better hands bid 2S; game force hands start with a cue-bid (2D). You have a good hand here, but since you have secondary honors in a suit where partner is likely short, you should devalue them a bid and bid only 2S instead of 2D. After 2S, 3C creates a game force (you have shown 8-11 or so, and partner is now showing the "big hand" X, since he can't support spades).

 

I don't know what 3S shows for you and your partner. As I stated above, playing "normal" treatments, it's preemptive. In that case, 4C is not forcing, but does show a moose. For you and your partner, it appears that 3S is better than 2S but not as good as a cue-bid. If that's the case, then clearly 4C must be a game force, because it shows the "moose" double. In either case, I think 4C is the right call.

 

Passing 4C is just plain bad. Partner has shown a moose with clubs. You have 9HCP with 5/5. You need to bid a game somewhere (even if you can't make it, stopping on a dime in a suit in which you are void is likely not going to get a great score). I would bid 4D at this point, to tell partner I want to be in game, but I'm not sure where the best spot is. Maybe partner has Qx or xxx in spades and can bid 4S. Maybe he has the world's fair in clubs and can bid 5C. Maybe he has hearts on the side and can bid those. Maybe we should be in 4NT. Who knows; hopefully partner will.

 

Cheers,

Mike