Tricky Takeout

[pescetom]

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The conservative combination of Pass and 3♣ cost me a tournament, although maybe partner could have risked 3NT. Alternatives, such as 3♠ over the double of unknown partner?

[johnu]

The conservative combination of Pass and 3♣ cost me a tournament, although maybe partner could have risked 3NT. Alternatives, such as 3♠ over the double of unknown partner?

 

If I was your partner and bid 3NT, you still would have lost the tournament because I would have misguessed diamonds and gone down.

[rmnka447]

I don't see the initial pass as necessarily a problem. But once partner doubles a weak 2 ♠ bid, 3 ♣ is a serious underbid.

 

Even if you play a Lebensohl 2 NT response to double of a weak 2 bid to show bust hands, a 3 ♣ response is still a serious underbid. 3 ♣ shows something more than a bust according to partnership agreement. I think it show at least a 6-7 count, otherwise you Lebensohl and pass or correct. (One good player I play with insists it shows even more.) The whole point is to avoid making the doubler guess what to do when holding a more than minimum double.

 

If you don't play it, 3 ♣ could be made on a zero count, so can't be right.

 

3 ♠, for me, remains the bid of choice to get partner to understand that game is likely opposite the double even if partner is an unknown quantity. If partner doesn't field it properly, that's his/her problem. If you bid incorrectly, then it's on partner. Partner is likely to bid 3 NT and, as johnu suggests, likely to misguess the ♦ finesse and go down. It may be small consolation, but avoids the wear and tear of recriminations.

 

Good bidding doesn't always get you to the right spot, just a reasonably good spot.

[Cyberyeti]

I don't see the initial pass as necessarily a problem. But once partner doubles a weak 2 ♠ bid, 3 ♣ is a serious underbid.

 

Even if you play a Lebensohl 2 NT response to double of a weak 2 bid to show bust hands, a 3 ♣ response is still a serious underbid. 3 ♣ shows something more than a bust according to partnership agreement. I think it show at least a 6-7 count, otherwise you Lebensohl and pass or correct. (One good player I play with insists it shows even more.) The whole point is to avoid making the doubler guess what to do when holding a more than minimum double.

 

If you don't play it, 3 ♣ could be made on a zero count, so can't be right.

 

3 ♠, for me, remains the bid of choice to get partner to understand that game is likely opposite the double even if partner is an unknown quantity. If partner doesn't field it properly, that's his/her problem. If you bid incorrectly, then it's on partner. Partner is likely to bid 3 NT and, as johnu suggests, likely to misguess the ♦ finesse and go down. It may be small consolation, but avoids the wear and tear of recriminations.

 

Good bidding doesn't always get you to the right spot, just a reasonably good spot.

 

3♠ tends to be staymanic particularly if you do play leb leading to a VERY tricky 4♥.

[smerriman]

3♠ tends to be staymanic particularly if you do play leb leading to a VERY tricky 4♥.

Wouldn't that be leb followed by 3S (or 3NT, depending on whether you have a stopper or not)?

[billyjef]

South could overcall 2NT, not that I wouldn't want more than the AT, but it ain't Christmas either :). I agree with the rest, pass is fine, 3♣ is an underbid.

[miamijd]

I would bid 2NT, not X, primarily because I hold the spade ten. That means Jxx opposite is going to produce a second trick. If you X, you're going to have a very awkward call over a 2NT Leb bid by partner.

 

If you don't play Leb over X of weak 2, you should do so. I disagree with all of the above posters -- after a X, I think 3C is just fine provided you play Leb. That means it's 8-11 or so. Seems like what you have. 3S is a gross overbid; your partner may have something like:

 

Kx

AJxx

Qxxx

Axx

 

and now you are in deep doo-doo.

 

Over a 3C 8-11 bid, you have an easy 3NT call.

[dsLawsd]

Some might say it was "the rub of the green" because the weak 2 bidder held ATxx of hearts and most games go down. There won't be a discovery play available so making a minor part score would often score 60%. Barry

Crane would open the North hand and there they would be at 3 NT making when the diamond queen comes down doubleton on a good guess. I would suppose 2NT in response to the double makes good sense regardless of the meaning...NO reason to beat yourself up over this one!

[Tramticket]

I would bid 2NT, not X, primarily because I hold the spade ten.

 

I agree with this.

 

Also, using the same logic. if I chose to double and received a 3♣ response (playing Lebensohl), I would bid 3NT, hoping that partner's spades are robust enough to provide a second stop. Even ♠XXX in partner's hand might be enough if we hold up the first round and East does not have a side entry.

[Cyberyeti]

Wouldn't that be leb followed by 3S (or 3NT, depending on whether you have a stopper or not)?

 

2N-3♣-3♠ and direct 3♠ are both staymanic with/without a stop, you can play this either way round.

 

3N either way says I want to play 3N, I don't have 4 hearts, with/without a spade stop either way round.

[nudnikbp]

You could overcall 2NT and partner would raise to 3NT, but down one is likely.

[Cyberyeti]

You could overcall 2NT and partner would raise to 3NT, but down one is likely.

 

Down a lot more than one is likely, they lead a spade, you win, cash 4 clubs as E pitches hearts, a top diamond and then finesse into the presumed short hand for -3

[eagles123]

not sure why we'd get the diamonds wrong, if east is 6 x x 1 surely 6331 or 6241 are more likely than 6421?

[pescetom]

Down a lot more than one is likely, they lead a spade, you win, cash 4 clubs as E pitches hearts, a top diamond and then finesse into the presumed short hand for -3

 

One table did indeed go -3 in this way, but at another 5 tables S made 3NT, usually by cashing A♦ and running the T♦ (whatever their reasoning was).

 

At another 3 tables N played ♦ making 11 or 12 tricks.

 

Just 4 tables let E play spades, 3 of them being 3SEx-2.

[pescetom]

Thanks to all for the thoughtful comments.

 

As I said, I had an unknown partner, and for the record Polish too: a fine nation of bridge players, but not exactly mainstream in terms of bidding :) I guessed he would take account of the lack of Lebensohl, but I honestly had no idea how he would take 3♠, which looked to me a slight overbid anyway. So 3♣ seemed the only safe option, even if a bit feeble. Interesting to note that one guy bid 3♦ in the same situation, go figure why but it did work out better.

 

I looked through the bidding of the other 14 tables. Seven started P P 2♠ X and five started P P 1♠, only one started P 1♦. Most of those who got to 3NT did so after the opponents went to 3♠, sometimes after 3♣, so I guess I didn't do anything terribly wrong compared to my peers.

[billyjef]

South could overcall 2NT, not that I wouldn't want more than the AT, but it ain't Christmas either :). I agree with the rest, pass is fine, 3♣ is an underbid.

 

If you are playing Leb, as now it seems you were, then 3♣ is not an underbid.

[Cyberyeti]

not sure why we'd get the diamonds wrong, if east is 6 x x 1 surely 6331 or 6241 are more likely than 6421?

 

Yeah, but E will discard 3 hearts on the clubs, so you can discount 6241, in fact it looks like he has ♥A as he hasn't let a spade go, so you'd have to believe he was not only 6-4 in the majors, but also had a 10 count and not opened 1 with that shape to play him for the Q♦.

[msjennifer]

Sirs,I find it strange that East opted for a bid of 2S holding the given hand, on the given vulnerability, when in my opinion it is a safe 1S opening playing Drury.Leaving aside that, holding the given Hand with a four carder heart suit and only a doubleton SA it is an unwise 2NT overcall .And after a double North has to make a Baron bid of 3C to show 9 plus hand when playing Lebensohl or failing that to bid 3S to deny a 4 carder heart suit but game force asking doubler to bid suits up the line.Knowing that responder does not have four cards in hearts South can start with the lowest minor suit.On a different hand doubler can bid his 5+ heart suit or 3NT etc as the hand warrants

[PhilG007]

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The conservative combination of Pass and 3♣ cost me a tournament, although maybe partner could have risked 3NT. Alternatives, such as 3♠ over the double of unknown partner?

[GrahamJson]

One table did indeed go -3 in this way, but at another 5 tables S made 3NT, usually by cashing A♦ and running the T♦ (whatever their reasoning was).

 

At another 3 tables N played ♦ making 11 or 12 tricks.

 

Just 4 tables let E play spades, 3 of them being 3SEx-2.

I imagine that most easts opened one spade, not two. If so it’s fairly obvious to play east for the diamond queen. Against a 2S opening it’s much more of a guess.

[rmnka447]

3♠ tends to be staymanic particularly if you do play leb leading to a VERY tricky 4♥.

 

Interesting how sometimes something comes up that identifies "holes" in your system. I've played Lebensohl 2 NT for years as primarily a way to distinguish between bust response to the double and decent values. The situation is a little different than Lebensohl in response to competition over partner's 1 NT. Partner is describing a hand "short" in the opponents suit and presumably without real light values.

 

But there's no reason, you shouldn't include some other pieces of Lebensohl as well. I'm not sure all of Lebensohl applies though. Clearly bidding NT with or without the relay is useful. Given OP hand and the auction as given, I'd be inclined to bid 3 NT to show values without a stopper and likely no 4 card ♥ suit.

 

BTW, I'd also bid 2 NT with the South hand to start.