Should a pass like this be regarded as forcing?

[thepossum]

Hi all

 

Recently playing IMPs I had this hand as south and considered bidding 2H but decided against it and missed a part score in C or NT. IMPs score was OK but at MPs I would have scored badly.

 

Was I being far too conservative passing the second round after North's pass. Looking at North's hand Im surprised there wasn't a club bid straight away after my double, although it would have been at 3 level. I understand finding a bid for N was difficult. Maybe my negative double was not appropriate and I should have bid 2H over 1S

 

Does anyone have any comments please. This is one of those (interesting) for me part score competitions which could make a big difference at MPs. Note I believe a few people made 3NT but am not sure that the hands are there to bid it easily. I would have been happy with any the positive score. Getting 2D down one trick wasnt too bad at IMPs though

 

regards P

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sqhjt842dq953ca95&w=s62haq76dj8642cj2&n=sajt75hda7ckt8763&e=sk9843hk953dktcq4&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=p1c1sd2dppp]399|300[/hv]

[helene_t]

Hi Possum,

 

The pass is certainly not forcing. The auction has not indicated that NS has the majority of the points, and besides, South can easily have a hand that is happy to defend undoubled and where every action is likely to lead to -200 or worse.

 

Do you play weak or strong NT? Would North have opened 1♠ with 4-4 in the black suits? This may influence South's decisions. If you play weak NT, and you know what a double by South would now mean (maybe: I want to defend doubled if you have a 15-16 balanced or you have diamond length but otherwise please take it out) then maybe South could consider doubling, after which North probably will bid 3♣.

 

But even then, pass is normal. With four diamonds you should be happy to defend. It is also quite common to have the agreement that North would have doubled 2♦ with a balanced 15+, so that North's pass now shows a weak unbalanced hand, probably with shortness in hearts. Opposite that handtype South is happy to defend, although you know that you have a 5-3 fit in clubs (unless North could have 4-1-4-4. Would North open 1♣ with such a hand?)

 

2♥ should show a 6-card suit or a very good five card, especially when vulnerable. So this is not a good idea IMHO.

[TylerE]

Not even close to forcing.

[thepossum]

Hi Helene

 

The pass is certainly not forcing. The auction has not indicated that NS has the majority of the points, and besides, South can easily have a hand that is happy to defend undoubled and where every action is likely to lead to -200 or worse.

 

Thanks. Maybe I don't yet understand fully what a forcing pass situation is. I didn't feel strong enough to bid even though I had 9 HCPs and some shape since I didnt think my hand was very strong (and hearts not great)

 

Do you play weak or strong NT? Would North have opened 1♠ with 4-4 in the black suits? This may influence South's decisions. If you play weak NT, and you know what a double by South would now mean (maybe: I want to defend doubled if you have a 15-16 balanced or you have diamond length but otherwise please take it out) then maybe South could consider doubling, after which North probably will bid 3♣.

 

I used to play Acol and Weak NT but over the last 6+ months Ive been learning 2/1 (or GIB variant of 2/1) which is strong 15-17 points. North would bid 1C with 4-4 in black. Its interesting choice with 5 Spades and 6 clubs to bid the clubs. I would have considered opening 1S in 5-card majors

 

But even then, pass is normal. With four diamonds you should be happy to defend. It is also quite common to have the agreement that North would have doubled 2♦ with a balanced 15+, so that North's pass now shows a weak unbalanced hand, probably with shortness in hearts. Opposite that handtype South is happy to defend, although you know that you have a 5-3 fit in clubs (unless North could have 4-1-4-4. Would North open 1♣ with such a hand?)

I'm not sure whether GIB would have doubled 2D with a flat hand. Part of the problem I find sometimes with the 1C openings is missing fits when they are natural bids. I know 2/1 has an emphasis on majors but sometimes I think minor fits get lost

 

2♥ should show a 6-card suit or a very good five card, especially when vulnerable. So this is not a good idea IMHO.

 

Thx, that confirms I assessed the situation reasonably correctly. I didnt think my hand was very good and the hearts were ordinary. Its surprising (to me) that 2 (and even 3?) NT makes and 3C also makes if we could get there. So the MP situation would be interesting between 120, 110 and 100 points but I was happy with +100

 

regards P

 

PS, I'm no 2/1 expert (still learning which is why I'm on here) but if N opens 1S (as I considered), I would bid 1 NT response since E may not have a bid, then N can bid C for second bid (or pass or something else) since W maybe cant bid either. That is how I would consider an alternate auction.

[Tramticket]

Passing looks normal at IMPs and MPs.

 

IMPs score was OK but at MPs I would have scored badly.

The result should be good at IMPs or MPs, since taking them 2-off vulnerable on a part-score hand must be a good result.

 

[You should score two top clubs, a top spade, two heart ruffs, a spade ruff and a natural trump trick with the queen.]

[thepossum]

Passing looks normal at IMPs and MPs.

 

 

The result should be good at IMPs or MPs, since taking them 2-off vulnerable on a part-score hand must be a good result.

 

[You should score two top clubs, a top spade, two heart ruffs, a spade ruff and a natural trump trick with the queen.]

 

Thats obviously more advanced play than the group I was playing with. Its always easy to analyse a hand when all the cards are in front of you :) But thanks. I will double check and see where the defensive error is.

 

PS I just checked. I was the only table that passed 2D to give me a chance and yes, I remember I made an error on one diamond trick. So I should have scored 200. It wasn't that hard just a beginner error :)

[Cyberyeti]

Not sure what X would show in gibland on the end of the auction, of course 5♣ makes comfortably as the cards lie but needs trumps 2-2.

[pescetom]

 

PS, I'm no 2/1 expert (still learning which is why I'm on here) but if N opens 1S (as I considered), I would bid 1 NT response since E may not have a bid, then N can bid C for second bid (or pass or something else) since W maybe cant bid either. That is how I would consider an alternate auction.

I think 1S 1NT is a more likely 2/1 auction, although East may double even so off shape and West may come in with 2H.

[thepossum]

Not sure what X would show in gibland on the end of the auction, of course 5♣ makes comfortably as the cards lie but needs trumps 2-2.

 

I dont know about X. I think I considered it and rejected it (based on descriptions) - it may have ended up in 3C. Its an interesting (to me) hand that NS have 5C and 3 NT (I think) if they can get there and take the risk but from what everyone has said the main choices were between Club/NT part scores and defending D in which case the defence gives (if I played it properly) the best score. You would have 2D-2 (200), 3C+2 (150), 2NT+1 (150) with a few high scorers who took the risk on game (and a few who took the risk and went down)

 

regards P

[thepossum]

I think 1S 1NT is a more likely 2/1 auction, although East may double even so off shape and West may come in with 2H.

 

That may also have ended in 3C from North I suspect??

[pescetom]

That may also have ended in 3C from North I suspect??

 

Possibly but not necessarily.

If the opponents come in with hearts then it could end in 3C+2 from North but also maybe 3H-2.

If they always pass, then it might even reach 3NT=

1S 1NT; 2C 2H; 3C 3NT

[steve2005]

Hi Helene

Thanks. Maybe I don't yet understand fully what a forcing pass situation is. I didn't feel strong enough to bid even though I had 9 HCPs and some shape since I didnt think my hand was very strong (and hearts not great)

 

Your hand barely has enough to do a negative double that will force partner to the 2-level.

The K&R evaluates hand at 7.95

K&R (Q JT842 Q953 A95) = 7.95

a very queenny hand with QS often worthless. Any bid is an overbid

 

The reason you got a bad result opener opened 1C playing on bidding spades but opps bid it

[rmnka447]

The pass isn't forcing, the negative double you made was correct and promised no more than 6 or 7 value. North, though distributional, has had the value of his/her hand decrease since RHO has bid ♠. (You and LHO are likely to be short in ♠. So if some ruffing in ♠ occurs, LHO opponent will have the opportunity to overruff you.) North hand was on a minimum HCP count anyway. So North's pass is a way to seek information about whether your side the balance of the power in the hand and should compete further.

 

I see no blame for the result -- rub of the green.

 

Had you held 10+ HCP in your hand, then you could make a call to reopen the auction. Double by your hand would show that with hands with that value but no clear cut other call and ask partner to do something intelligent. Or, you could make a clear cut bid if it was available.

[helene_t]

I'm not sure whether GIB would have doubled 2D with a flat hand.

GIB normally plays support doubles but I don't know if they apply here. My guess would be that double by North would be penalty here in Giberish although it probable isn't the best treatment. Anyway, GIB has denied a balanced 15-17 and would probably just pass with a balanced 12-14 without 4-card hearts.

 

So GIB could have 4=2=3=4, although it seems a bit unlikely given your own diamond length.

 

It can be quite fun (if you are into that kind of humour; I am!) to play different NT ranges. Lots of auctions become different in 15-17 systems than in 12-14 systems.

[thepossum]

 

It be quite fun (if you are into that kind of humour; I am!) to play different NT ranges. Lots of auctions become different in 15-17 systems than in 12-14 systems.

 

I started out playing Acol many years ago with weak and/or variable NT. I enjoy Acol a fair bit, especially the different nature of auctions with 4 card majors, weak NT etc. I also like strong 2s sometimes even though they are out of fashion

 

P

[thepossum]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful comments

 

Regards P